These problems normal for a 5-year-old Saturn?

[Echoes]

Hello. Would you consider the problems listed below normal for a
5-year-old 1999 SL2 Saturn?

I ask because with my 1993 SL2 Saturn, I only had 2 major repairs
throughout its 6-year ownership: 1) stuck solenoid switch (if I recall
correctly), and 2) clutch issue in its 6th year of ownership.


Problems with my 1999 SL2:

- Major(?) problems include getting the water pump replaced twice.
They are saying I had to get it replaced against because I was over my
60K service by 8,000 miles.

- Problem with alternator after 1 year of ownership

- Brakes, exhaust system after 5 years of ownership.

- Power window going out


Question: Why am I seeing all of these problems after 5 years of
ownership when my 1993 SL2 had 6 years with not as many problems? Was
one of the mechanics correct in that she said that the 1993 Saturns
were built better?

Is this really par for the course, and I should just consider myself
lucky with my 1993 Saturn?

Here is my Maintenance history (I have also gotten the standard oil
change every 3000-5000 miles):

--- 08/26/99 -- purchased car, about 1K miles already on it (one of
the sales people had been driving it for personal use)

--- 03/08/00, 6K service -- done at 7926 miles -- $90

--- 06/14/00, 12K service -- done at 11753 miles -- $104

--- approximately 1 year after purchase, car broke down -- no power;
nothing, something to do with alternator, was covered under warranty
(can't find paperwork for this)

--- 11/24/00, 18K -- 18037 miles -- $84

--- 07/03/01, 24K -- 26763 miles -- $105

--- 12/04/01, 30K -- 33270 miles -- $327

--- 11/09/02, 48K -- 46842 miles -- $211

--- 1/23/03, 42269 miles, had water pump replaced as Saturn said it
was leaking. Note: This was done at non-Saturn repair place (Clinton's
Auto Service in Seattle, WA, have had good comments and praise about
them)

--- 4/29/03, 53174 miles, had to have power-window motor replaced

--- 7/20/04, 60K service -- 68039 miles, and also had brakes fixed --
$668

--- early month of August, had exhaust system and water pump replaced,
$650

 

[Philip Nasadowski]

Hello. Would you consider the problems listed below normal for a
5-year-old 1999 SL2 Saturn?

Shouldn't be.

- Major(?) problems include getting the water pump replaced twice.
They are saying I had to get it replaced against because I was over my
60K service by 8,000 miles.

DexCool(tm)! Regardless of what GM says, that orange crap is NOT good
for 100,000 miles. Oh sure, on paper it is - makes the EPA happy - but
in real life? No way. I'm taking a stab here and guessing that you
didn't maintain your cooling system - NOT your fault - you read the
manual which was vague on it.

- Problem with alternator after 1 year of ownership

Saturns are reall hit/miss with this. It's weird, too, because some
people go forever, other go through them like candy. I don't know why.

- Brakes, exhaust system after 5 years of ownership.

Brakes failing, or wearing out. If the latter, they are a 'wear item'.
The exhaust? If it rusted out while still under the EPA warrenty, you
should NOT have had to pay for it. And check - some states have a
longer than standard one (NY and Mass and Cali, among others).

- Power window going out
*shrug*

Question: Why am I seeing all of these problems after 5 years of
ownership when my 1993 SL2 had 6 years with not as many problems? Was
one of the mechanics correct in that she said that the 1993 Saturns
were built better?

Maybe. Might be luck. I think the DexCrap in the cooling system is
probbably what's killing water pmps, though.

Is this really par for the course, and I should just consider myself
lucky with my 1993 Saturn?

My '93's been fine.

Here is my Maintenance history (I have also gotten the standard oil
change every 3000-5000 miles):

Well, with those changes, the motor should last forever

--- 08/26/99 -- purchased car, about 1K miles already on it (one of
the sales people had been driving it for personal use)

Uh oh. When I see 'personal use', I immediately think burnouts, hole
shots, racing everything in sight.....

--- 1/23/03, 42269 miles, had water pump replaced as Saturn said it
was leaking. Note: This was done at non-Saturn repair place (Clinton's
Auto Service in Seattle, WA, have had good comments and praise about
them)

What was the replacement? Gen-u-ine Saturn, reputable OEM, Taiwanese
special? The first two are good, the last is iffy at best. But still,
water pump at 42k miles - something's not right.

--- 7/20/04, 60K service -- 68039 miles, and also had brakes fixed --
$668

One heck of a fix - what happened?

--- early month of August, had exhaust system and water pump replaced,
$650

Ugh.

 

[Blah Blah]

Maybe. Might be luck. I think the DexCrap in the cooling system is
probbably what's killing water pumps, though.

After 7 years and 150k miles on my fathers truck with the same dexcool
coolant from the factory I dont think so. What you never heard of
waterpumps going out repeatedly prior to Dexcool? I guess waterpumps
never failed prior to dexcool... When we pulled the pump off it looked
like it was cast just yesterday. No rust, no pitting, no scale. The seal
just desided to give out.

 

[Echoes]

Shouldn't be.


DexCool(tm)! Regardless of what GM says, that orange crap is NOT good
for 100,000 miles. Oh sure, on paper it is - makes the EPA happy - but
in real life? No way. I'm taking a stab here and guessing that you
didn't maintain your cooling system - NOT your fault - you read the
manual which was vague on it.

Yeah, I'm not too knowledgeable about cars, so I go by what the manual
says, or whatever the Saturn repair dept puts in there.

What is a good antifreeze to put in there? Oh! I just remembered this,
so perhaps this might be a major reason why. Months before I had the
water pump replaced, I accidentally put in some blue antifreeze (not
knowing better). Well, I ended up getting a coolant flush because of
that.

But perhaps the damage was already done? But even so, that should
haven't had necessitated a second water pump having to be installed...

Saturns are reall hit/miss with this. It's weird, too, because some
people go forever, other go through them like candy. I don't know why.

$300-400 towing charge to the nearest Bellevue dealership. But it was
nice having all of that covered under warranty

Brakes failing, or wearing out. If the latter, they are a 'wear item'.

I think it was just wearing out. According to the invoice, they
replaced front brake pads and resurfaced the rotors. That there costs
$226, with $158 being labor.

The exhaust? If it rusted out while still under the EPA warrenty, you
should NOT have had to pay for it. And check - some states have a
longer than standard one (NY and Mass and Cali, among others).

The invoice here said something about a resonator mid-pipe and
leakage. How long is an EPA warranty? All I remember them saying is I
should get it fixed, as the leakage could spill carbon monoxide in the
car.

Maybe. Might be luck. I think the DexCrap in the cooling system is
probbably what's killing water pmps, though.


My '93's been fine.

I should have kept mine. Worked great. Hope the social services that I
donated it to is putting it to good use.

Well, with those changes, the motor should last forever


Uh oh. When I see 'personal use', I immediately think burnouts, hole
shots, racing everything in sight.....

Yeah, I was kinda wondering about that, too

What was the replacement? Gen-u-ine Saturn, reputable OEM, Taiwanese
special? The first two are good, the last is iffy at best. But still,
water pump at 42k miles - something's not right.

Good question, I'm not sure. I seem to recall Clinton's saying they
had to order the part from Saturn, but I couldn't testify to that.

One heck of a fix - what happened?

This was the replacing of the front disc pads and resurfacing of the
rotors, plus the standard 60-mile service checkup. The 60K service was
around $400, the remainder for the brakes.

Ugh.

Yeah, tell me about it.

I guess I'm kinda disappointed; I had such a good experience with my
first Saturn, it kind of bums me with the repair experiences with my
second one.

 

[Philip Nasadowski]

I think it was just wearing out. According to the invoice, they
replaced front brake pads and resurfaced the rotors. That there costs
$226, with $158 being labor.

Ahh. Yeah , brakes do wear out BTW, I wouldn't bother getting
rotors turned, they're generally cheaper to just replace.

The invoice here said something about a resonator mid-pipe and
leakage. How long is an EPA warranty? All I remember them saying is I
should get it fixed, as the leakage could spill carbon monoxide in the
car.

Check your manual. I'm pretty sure yours was up by then, but depending
on your state, it might not have. BTW, the EPA warrenty covers any
emissions related part / system, regardless of it being a safety hazzard
or not.

I guess I'm kinda disappointed; I had such a good experience with my
first Saturn, it kind of bums me with the repair experiences with my
second one.

Well, two water pumps is kinda bad, the power window? I dunno. The
exhaust is weird too. But the brakes? That's wear and tear. Better to
replace your brakes than your car!

 

[Blah Blah]

What is a good antifreeze to put in there? Oh! I just remembered this,
so perhaps this might be a major reason why. Months before I had the
water pump replaced, I accidentally put in some blue antifreeze (not
knowing better). Well, I ended up getting a coolant flush because of
that.

But perhaps the damage was already done? But even so, that should
haven't had necessitated a second water pump having to be installed...

Not sure how the hell people get coolants mixed up unless their
completely color blind... Any silicate phosphate free coolant is what
you want. This isnt the 1950's so you want a coolant designed for this
new metal they got out now, I think they call it aluminum... If you're
intolerant of Texaco Havoline then try Prestone Extended Life Coolant.
It is compatible with Dexcool and doesnt eat up the cooling system like
conventional green coolant does.
Btw once your system has a non-extended life coolant in it you cannot
switch back and expect extended life coolant to last more than 2 years
because of contamination. If using conventional coolant it should be
changed yearly at the least and left in for NO more than 2 years tops.

 

[Echoes]

Well, two water pumps is kinda bad, the power window? I dunno. The
exhaust is weird too. But the brakes? That's wear and tear. Better to
replace your brakes than your car!

Yeah, the power window and brakes are par for the course. And yeah,
better to replace my brakes than not able to replace my life!

 

[Echoes]

Not sure how the hell people get coolants mixed up unless their
completely color blind... Any silicate phosphate free coolant is what

It's actually quite easy to get mixed up, if one such as myself is
uninformed and unknowledgeable what type to put in there, and then
attempts to make extrapolated assumptions, and thus inaccurate
guesses from the manual on what kind should be put in there.

 

[Blah Blah]

It's actually quite easy to get mixed up, if one such as myself is
uninformed and unknowledgeable what type to put in there, and then
attempts to make extrapolated assumptions, and thus inaccurate
guesses from the manual on what kind should be put in there.

Making guesstimations? This should take some guess work out of it.
This is just me going from my memory... The overflow bottle cap will
have a Orange or Green dot in the center for Saturns. The rest of GM
will have a sticker near the bottle that mentions something about
Dexcool if its a dexcool system, unless its pealed off. I'm kinda
thinking that "blue coolant" might of been windshield washer fluid and
someone filled the wrong bottle. Just a theory.

 

[Echoes]

Making guesstimations? This should take some guess work out of it.
This is just me going from my memory... The overflow bottle cap will
have a Orange or Green dot in the center for Saturns. The rest of GM

Excellent, thanks, I'll keep a lookout on that in the future.

will have a sticker near the bottle that mentions something about
Dexcool if its a dexcool system, unless its pealed off. I'm kinda
thinking that "blue coolant" might of been windshield washer fluid and
someone filled the wrong bottle. Just a theory.

LOL, I'm not that bad -- at least, I hope I'm not that bad!. The blue
in this case was a lot thicker than the windshield stuff; I picked up
a small container of it at some gas station (Chevron or Shell or
Union76).

 

[Blah Blah]

Excellent, thanks, I'll keep a lookout on that in the future.


LOL, I'm not that bad -- at least, I hope I'm not that bad!. The blue
in this case was a lot thicker than the windshield stuff; I picked up
a small container of it at some gas station (Chevron or Shell or
Union76).

Oh I thought they put the blue in at a shop. I read something wrong...

 

[Elector]

Check your manual. I'm pretty sure yours was up by then, but
depending
on your state, it might not have. BTW, the EPA warrenty covers any
emissions related part / system, regardless of it being a safety
hazzard
or not.

<snip>

Be very careful here, the Ross-Magnusson Act does not cover the
"Intake" only the exhaust. In my manual it was pages 25-27 for the
1999 SL1. However when confronted with the logic both at the
dealership and that no use customer support line and 2 managers they
said that the intake manifold was not covered and not part of the
exhaust system. In my case I told them to fix the problem (An intake
leak) and I would pay the invoice and then sue the hell out of them to
get the money back. That caused quite a stir all around and they
called back and said as a courtesy they would eat the cost of the
repair if I would pay the $9 for the gasket. Seemed like a good deal
and it had been fixed.

The law in New York mirrors California but it had to be a car
purchased in 2004 (After January) when the law took affect. That
emissions control law only affect 5 years up to that new car year
purchase. The 2003 on down have a 5 years of coverage and not 8.

Elector

 

[Philip Nasadowski]

Be very careful here, the Ross-Magnusson Act does not cover the
"Intake" only the exhaust.

Interesting. The EPA considers the intake to be an emissions control
componnt, as does CARB....

 

[Elector]

Interesting. The EPA considers the intake to be an emissions
control
componnt, as does CARB....

Yes it does. For fun read the manual for the Saturn you own and see
that little exclusion. I am under the impression that the court would
have felt it covered also. Saturn of Albany did not want to fight the
issue so they gave the "courtesy repair". You had to be on the phone
with Saturn's Customer Service when they argued it was not under the
federal act, and was under their own warranty terms. I wish I taped
it.

Elector

 

[Philip Nasadowski]

Saturn of Albany did not want to fight the
issue so they gave the "courtesy repair".

I'm sure if you reminded them the EPA likes to investigate this stuff,
they'd have been even more cooperative...

You had to be on the phone
with Saturn's Customer Service when they argued it was not under the
federal act, and was under their own warranty terms. I wish I taped
it.

Yeah, sounds like fun (not!). The trick is to get past the first and
2nd level phone answerers and get to someone real...