sudden engine overheating

I have a '93 Saturn SL1 with 146k miles that catastrophically
overheated on the highway recently (still need to get it towed and into
a repair shop from a mall parking lot!). I'm trying to get an idea of
what might have happened and whether there could be significant engine
damage. This problem came mostly out of nowhere, although there have
been a few odd things lately:

1. Had the EGR valve replaced a few weeks ago after a hesitation
problem - after my mechanic forced the valve closed, essentially
disconnecting it from the pneumatic mechanism, the hesitation
completely disappeared. So he installed a new valve, hesitation was
gone.
2. Soon after having the EGR valve replaced, the check engine light
came on again (code 26 - quad drive module), which only happened at
speeds in excess of 65 mph. This light first came on at high speeds 8
months ago, and it didn't seem to be a big issue, and the light went
off once slowing down to 60 mph or lower - I figured it was something
worthless like the canister purge solenoid, or after the EGR incident,
that it was perhaps because of the EGR. Apparently not.
3. Although the entire car is a rattling piece of plastic junk and I
give up trying to diagnose individual rattles, since shortly before the
EGR valve went bad, there has been a loud rattle and occasionally a
grinding sound coming from somewhere under the hood. Other than the
sound, everything seemed to run fine. Right before overheating, there
was a chirping sound, but after a prolonged horrible squealing after
overheating and attempting to drive again, it looks like these sounds
are due to the drive belt covered in coolant ejected from the
reservoir.
4. A few months ago, the coolant overheat/fill light flashed at me a
few times (while the engine was still cold). I never had to add
coolant before, but it was very slightly below the fill bar. I added
some coolant and the light didn't come back.

I don't know how long I was driving with the engine really hot, but
suddenly I looked down and the temp gauge was way up in the red zone.
Since it was pitch black, late at night, and freezing outside, and I
don't own a cell phone, I decided to try to get the car to an area near
a phone. The fan was blowing after turning the car off, so it must
have known it was overheating. Turned it on once more after about 10
minutes, horrible squealing (wet drive belt?) when reentering the
highway, and it shot up to past the red mark within 30 seconds and for
the first time the coolant overheat light started flashing. I pulled
over again, turned the car off, and after a few minutes once more
entered the highway and drove, with the light flashing, to a mall off
the highway. The car was 'smoking' but it smelled only like burning
coolant. Coolant was belched everywhere under the hood and it lost
possibly up to half a liter pouring onto the pavement. What are the
chances that serious damage was done to the engine? Is there any
relationship at all between the vacuum used to open/close the EGR
valve, engine pressure, and possible head gasket seal leaks? Any
suggestions are appreciated.

Also - this is eerily similar to major problems I had with my last car,
an 87 Nova. I had perpetual problems trying to prevent the car from
overheating, but it was usually fine so long as it wasn't the middle of
summer in stop-and-go traffic. Something was pressurizing the coolant
(head gasket seal problem? It was blown years before and fixed, but
maybe not well enough) and it was being ejected from the reservoir.
The radiator appeared empty, as it had a cap and was accessible, unlike
the Saturn. The car probably only badly overheated once when I tried
some stupid tip I read online about leaving the radiator cap slightly
open while driving to alleviate the pressure drop (I was desperate, and
it was 100 degrees that day...), and it died of what was probably a
cracked cylinder catastrophically on the interstate a couple months
afterwards. If this is likely to happen to the Saturn, I don't think I
want to spend $1000 or more fixing it now.

 

I do not believe items 1 through 3 are related to your engine overheating.
Item #4 though was a warning sign that there was a problem, possibly a major
one like a head gasket or a minor one like a stuck closed thermostat, a
leaking water pump/hose/radiator.

By not addressing the issue at the early warning sign, this has now
definitely turned into a major problem. I'd guess that you probably blew
the head gasket, then cooked the oil.

Never, ever continue to drive an overheated vehicle without at least letting
it cool down completely and then checking to make sure the coolant level is
full. Continuing to drive it, especially at high RPM/speed was the worst
thing you could have done. In the future, you should immediately turn the
heater and blower on full hot to help provide additional cooling to the
engine and if the temperature does not go down, then pull over and shut it
down completely.

Please post what they find and estimated cost to repair. Also make sure you
change the oil and filter as well as the coolant when you do the required
mechanical repairs.

Bob

 

Thanks for your reply. The car was started briefly to bring it up onto
the tow truck bed and there was some white smoke (but nothing like the
billowing huge clouds). There really wasn't much of an early warning
sign since if the coolant was leaking, it wasn't doing it very much
(which could be anything minor in an old car from an aging hose to a
corroding radiator). It didn't seem to leak anymore after the initial
refill, and I checked it a few times afterwards. The mechanic it was
towed to said if it's a blown head gasket (and likely if there's *any*
white smoke), it would be something like $1200-2000 to fix it, and he
doesn't recommend doing so, and may even refuse to do so, on a car with
over 100k miles since something else could go a month later. I don't
really appreciate this mindset, since if I bought another car, it would
probably have over 100k on it from the start, and something is just as
likely if not more likely to be wrong with it. My Nova's head gasket
was replaced at close to 100k for $600 and it survived another 4-5
years (billowing white clouds, and as a stupid teenager I drove it for
2 days like that). So I'll probably get it fixed even if I have to
have it towed somewhere else after diagnosis, which is worth it for
$60. Is $1200-$2000 a ridiculous price for replacing the head gasket
on a Saturn? I know these cars are expensive to repair but that sounds
a little crazy. The repair shop looked a little too pretty and nice
for my price range, so it wouldn't surprise me if they charge top
prices. But I trust them to diagnose it well.

I know it's my fault for driving it further, but things are a little
scary in this area for a young woman walking alone at 11:30pm on a
Saturday night, plus I wasn't well-prepared for the cold weather nor
did I have a cell phone. I probably should have driven it in more
short spurts but that wasn't going too well. I also had nonrefundable
airplane tickets and had to leave for the airport in 5 hours! It was
a tough judgment call, having a vague idea but not knowing how much
damage was already done or would be done by driving an extra mile or
so. Will let you know what the diagnosis is.

 

Is $1200-$2000 a ridiculous price for replacing the head gasket
on a Saturn?

Yes, that is ridiculous. Get a 2nd or 3rd estimate.

Lane [ lane (at) evilplastic.com ]

 

On 24 Mar 2006 20:50:24 -0800, wrote:


More than likely it is a stuck thermostat. If engine was overheated
badly enough to wraps head and blow a head gasket or cause other
damage, you would be better to replace the engine with a bone yard
motor because sometimes when a motor is cooked good, it is never quite
right again even after repairs and if the head of block is not cracked
now, it may later.

 

1000 dollars or so will buy a lower mileage engine out of a wreck with
install.
Being a 93 I'm theorizing the coolant wasnt changed every 2 years and
years of having a bad PH balance had ate up the head gasket and probably
the waterpump.

 

I never change my antifreeze every 2 years but I do run around 70%
anitfreeze though and have for many years and have no build up
problems at all. I have a 89 burb that the overflow tank is as clean
as the day it was built with no stains and it has no had a coolant
change for about 7 years now. I also have a 1954 JD tractor that has
not had a coolant change in 20 years but it is almost pure antifreeze
(80 to 90%) and it is clean still too. It sees about 30 to 50 hours of
use a year too. The best way to insure coolant stabilty is to run
60/40 or better as 50/50 does not cut it long term, especailly if a
motor with aluminum parts. Wate is very reactive with disimular metals
and the less of it in your coolant, the better.

 

I'm guessing that $1000 doesn't include installation, just pulling it
out of a junkyard (and who knows what might be wrong with it?). I live
in an apartment building and am not a hobbyist mechanic so the cost
would likely be at least double for me!

The cooling system problem has been diagnosed as the water pump. The
bearings went bad, which explains that grinding and rattling sound
under the hood that I described, that had occurred for a few months.

You're correct that the coolant was neglected (I only checked the level
and the color, but intended to get a flush, just never got around to
it) but supposedly the water pumps are something that you just need to
preventatively replace at ca. 100k miles, and if it was the bearings,
the failure wasn't due to corrosion. The mechanic won't check the
engine for damage until they can run it without causing further damage
(is this common practice? it might be worth it for my sake to just turn
it on for a couple minutes and check the emissions composition or
pressure or whatever...), so they're replacing the water pump and belt
and will then further diagnose. If the head gasket is ruined, there
was no sign of it prior to the overheating incident. I had some water
condensation around the engine oil cap that looked like a water/oil
emulsion last time I did an oil change, but was informed that some
water condensation around the cap is normal if the car is only driven
short distances without warming up, particularly in winter. The rest
of the drained oil looked ok.

 

Nah that was the whole shebang if you shop around ($400 for motor, rest
labor). Yeah the replacement motor is a big question mark but then again
so is yours in a way.

Emissions have to be checked with the engine at a normal temp. A
cylinder leak down test can be done in its current state, also pressure
testing of the cooling system can be done. You might get lucky and be
able to get this engine up and running without any major work at all.

 

You have some points there but not enough caution to people who are in a
different climate than you. Pure antifreeze will freeze and doesnt do a
very good job of absorbing and transfering heat away from an engine.
Clean means nothing when you have acid in your cooling system and not
just in your battery. So more antifreeze can be a very bad thing. Tap
water or just dirty unfiltered water gets people into trouble. I use a
carbon filter jug (once used for drinking water) here at home to distile
my well water. I use a 50/50 mix of dexcool and all of my vehicles
cooling systems are very clean.

http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF6/images/680.jpg

 

Make sure the mechanic uses Saturn approved (Ethylene Glycol, but without
phosphates) engine coolant and also adds the required GM sealant pellets as
well. Make sure he also thoroughly chemically flushes the radiator, heater
core, and engine block first and then rinses it all out with distilled water
following the chemical's directions to assure neutralization. This coolant
replacement process should be done every two years regardless of mileage the
vehicle is driven. Not having it replaced is just asking for trouble and
may have contributed to premature water pump failure as well.

By the way, while you are having this done, tell the mechanic to look at the
rubber hoses and if they, or the thermostat, have not been replaced within
the last 5 or so years, I'd suggest you do them now for peace of mind.

Lastly, make sure you have the engine oil and filter changed too as I
suggested earlier. If you are lucky you may get by without replacing
anything else, but keep your eye on the head gasket and coolant level as
these are temperamental and there may still be unobserved damage done by
this incident.

Bob

And PS, if it runs lousy after you do all this, then clean and re-gap or
replace the spark plugs since they are cheap and easy to get at.

 

Next time you drain that 7 year old fluid, buy a backflush kit and use a
garden hose. I think you will be absolutely AMAZED at the corrosion/rust
that comes out of that radiator and engine block. You will never see this
if all you do is drain the radiator and then run some clean water through it
before refilling with new coolant.

Basic Ethylene Glycol-based antifreeze has corrosion inhibitors added that
will last 2 to 3 years . After that, the mixture in your radiator begin to
attack the metals used in the radiator cooling passages, the engine block,
and head. I know what my used 60/40 (EG/distilled water) coolant looks like
when I backflush my system and this is after just two years. I can't
imagine what yours will look like after seven!

Oh well, to each their own. Me, I believe in preventive maintenance...
Knock on wood, but with 5 vehicles in the family ranging from 1991 to 2001
and having owned and maintained many other vehicles of many different makes
and model over the last 30+ years, I have only replaced one radiator and no
heater cores.

Bob

 

When Mazda first came out with aluminum rotary engine in 70's it
shipped with 90/10 (anti freeze to water) Pure anit freeze will
"slush" at about 15 degrees and will not become a solid block until
about 90 below. A 90/10 mix will slush at about 25 below (F) and 80/20
about minus 55. Peak protection is reached between 65 and 70% of
about 84 below. Also when anitfreeze is present, your coolant does not
freeze sold or with enongh force to damage block. At the mixture
freeze point it starts to slush. It is also a misconception about
cooling capacity on antifreeze too. While pure antifreeze has a
slightly lower heat capacity than pure water per liter, this is not
really a factor in a closed cooling system that is properly designed
and pure anitfreez has a boiling point of about 380 degrees too. Also
antifreeze will adhere and cuduct heat from block more readily too
because it will reduce gassing from contact with a hot surface as this
gassing insulates heat transfer and the higher the boil point of
coolant,the less gassing and better heat transfer to coolant. One more
tid bit, if you use Proplene Glycol anitfreeze (non toxic) instead of
Ethlene Glycol, it reaches its maximum freeze protection at a 100%
consentration.

 

I think I got lucky, I have the car back now with the replaced water
pump and it seems to run well (no different than before). All the
under-the-hood weird sounds are gone (wish I had known it was the pump
beforehand! I opened the hood and tried to isolate where the sound was
coming from a few times but it was futile). Guess you can only hope
the damage was minimal.

My view is that the car has been a serious deal (spent $3k on it 5.5
years ago), it has nearly 150k on it, so I'm not going to go seriously
out of my way to keep it running for all perpetuity...at a certain
point it doesn't make economic sense anymore, and even if you replace
the engine - the transmission, CV joints, all sorts of things can and
eventually will fail and it adds up to some serious cash, especially
these Saturns which are economy junk cars with ridiculously expensive
parts - one example, a cop gave me a repair order for the windshield,
it cost over $400 to replace! (for a small contained crack far out of
my view). When I called up glass shops, they'd look up the price for
me and in shock, would ask me first what other kind of estimates I was
getting, I had to tell them "I know it's expensive" because these
places couldn't even believe their own price lists. I saw a list
somewhere ranking the old model Saturn SL's as one of the top cars to
get stolen for parts, most of which are exported to Latin America.
It's just hard to decide when to actually dump the car, because at any
point in time, spending $500 to get a particular thing fixed is easier
than shopping for another used car.

The shop said there was no evidence of head gasket failure, whatever
that means. I thought about those pellets and I'm not sure if they
added them - can you just purchase them from somewhere? Since they
probably only added new coolant, a lot of the old sealant gunk is
probably still there. Preemptively getting the thermostat and hoses
changed is definitely a good idea, there's almost nothing worse than
these multitudes of minor cooling system problems - any failure can
destroy the car. The shop did an oil change, and the spark plugs were
replaced a couple months ago.

 

Glad to hear you escaped disaster this time around. If those are original
hoses you are likely to repeat the experience very soon!

Bob

 

Glad it worked out with no additional damage.

Just a tip for the future. It is often difficult to identify where a noise
is coming from and there is a real safety issue when trying to get close to
moving machinery. A mechanics stethescope can be of help but they can be
hard to find when you need them. A proper mechanics stethescope has a long
rod connected to a diaphram and this rod can be placed against a bearing
housing to listen to an individual bearing while in operation. The second
best technique is to use a piece of 3/4 hose a couple of feet long, place
one end in your ear and the other end near various possible locations for
any unusual noise. The hose will tend to isolate the noises and you will
only hear noise from close to the open end. Almost any piece of hose will
work. Some would also suggest a 1/4-3/8 " metal rod but this is much harder
to use, especially for the inexperienced.

IMHO not true

with ridiculously expensive

Agreed.

Almost any automobile will give lots of very cost effective service long
past 150,000 mi. PROVIDED that you DO NOT run them low on coolant or oil.
Most really expensive repairs are caused by lack of lubrication or coolant
or by abusive operation. Check your coolant and engine and transmission oil
regularly and keep them changed at proper intervals. Change the
transmission oil more frequently than mfg recommends, (IMHO use 50000 mi
change interval) Do NOT ride the clutch. Check the CV joint boots and
investigate any unusual oil or grease leaks, (when the leak stops it is
usually because it has run out of lubricant and is about to fail.

- one example, a cop gave me a repair order for the windshield,

See the new thread "S series windshield replacement cost"

I saw a list

Changing your coolant as recommended is a good practice.

"If it aint broke don't fix it', but do practice regular inspections of all
rubber parts like coolant hoses and CV boots. The original hoses may well
be of much better quality that any replacement part.

Consider yourself lucky and hope that it continues, but don't count on it.

In the future I would suggest that you do NOT continue to operate an
overheated engine that is low on coolant.

Just my .02 YMMV