Some states want to punish fuel-efficient car drivers!

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by Tim Howard, Jan 8, 2009.

  1. Blood is good for crops, too.
     
    Matthew Russotto, Jan 14, 2009
    #61
  2. Tim Howard

    Jay Giuliani Guest

    I agree, it comes down to charging the people that use something a fair rate
    to support it.

    As a child, bus systems were all privately owned and you paid a rate
    designed to keep the company in business which was agreed upon by the public
    utilities commissions.

    The reasons transit went public was because there was such resistance to
    fare changes, most companies simply went out of business because they could
    not stay profitable. As a result the public took over the transit systems.

    Cheap public trasit became an entitlement that no one wants to give up.

    There has long been a belief that federal dollars should support public
    transportation systems. Someone in Wyoming would question this.

    Philadelphia's system has been working with reduced support for several
    reasons:

    Gradual rate increases to realistic levels

    Reducing runs on bloated schedules resulting in empty vehicles, and
    terminating underutilized services

    This has created hardships for many that have no alternative but has served
    the greater good.

    The profitable portion of SEPTA's business is the commuter rail bringing
    paying workers in from the burbs.

    That said, Philly did not work that well during the strike, even with the
    regional rail working while the buses and subways were out.

    I would not want to even be near NYC during a strike.

    I have a friend that lives in Manhatten and garages his car 22 blocks
    uptown.

    They have to cab or bus to the garage to take a ride on the weekend.

    I personally avoid center city Philly as much as possible and since I
    changed jobs, never go to NYC any longer.

    Bottom line is the city, the riders and the businesses they work at should
    be paying the freight.

    They ought to consider allowing new businesses to start running on speific
    routes and see how the cost shake out.

    It won't happen of course because in Philly and NYC at least it would
    threatan union jobs, and we all know who pulls the strings in these towns.

    If you want to tax my gas to pay for the roads I drive on, go ahead.
     
    Jay Giuliani, Jan 14, 2009
    #62
  3. Bus systems can't be children.
     
    Elmo P. Shagnasty, Jan 14, 2009
    #63
  4. Pfft. You liberals. Always wanting the infrastructure to work. Don't
    you know that we should sacrifice civilization to the ideology of Ayn
    Rand?
     
    Gordon McGrew, Jan 15, 2009
    #64
  5. Tim Howard

    Brent Guest

    Because civilization is defined as using a threat of violence to take
    from some people to give to other people while taking a cut.
     
    Brent, Jan 15, 2009
    #65
  6. Tim Howard

    Shawn Hirn Guest

    The reality is that gas taxes have to go up as the price of gas drops.
    The driver of an SUV or a Civic uses the same amount of gas and drives
    the same distance regardless of the cost of that gas at the pump.

    I do like your idea of having the cost of auto registration tied to the
    impact a vehicle has on the roads. Heavier vehicles should cost more to
    register than lighter vehicles.
     
    Shawn Hirn, Jan 15, 2009
    #66
  7. Tim Howard

    Shawn Hirn Guest

    Which state are you referring to? Most states do have to run a balanced
    budget. Its not like the states can go out and print their own currency
    like the federal government can.

    Most states depend on PROJECTED revenue from various sources in order to
    pay for their daily obligations and service bond debt. With the credit
    crunch, most (if not all) states and public agencies are finding it
    nearly impossible to borrow money for planned capital projects such as
    building new highways. States can't control the retail price of gas, so
    when the price falls, their revenue from gas taxes falls, but their
    obligations to do road maintenance remains the same. As a result, most
    states are in a financial bind.

    What would you propose states with falling revenues do in order to
    budget their money in this economy? Should they close off roads and
    bridges that need repairs and tell drivers to use alternate routes until
    they have the money to do the repairs? Should they fire cops and
    firemen? Close parks. Cut down the hours at DMV stations (meaning longer
    wait times for customers)? Tell school children to stay home one extra
    day per week? Yes, there are ways in most states to cut spending, but
    the cuts are a drop in the bucket compared with the lost revenue.
     
    Shawn Hirn, Jan 15, 2009
    #67
  8. Tim Howard

    Shawn Hirn Guest

    Mass transit passengers don't ride for free ... at least most don't.
    Every public transportation system I know of charges money for the
    services it provides. And fares have been steadily rising over the
    years, more so than the gas tax. As you said, mass transit takes a huge
    load off the highway system in most major cities.
     
    Shawn Hirn, Jan 15, 2009
    #68
  9. Tim Howard

    Shawn Hirn Guest

    You can't be serious. I work in North Philadelphia. I have commuted in
    Philadelphia during the public transit strikes in 1998 and 2005. Let me
    tell you, even in my own car, those public transportation strikes were a
    major inconvenience. Parking in Center City was very hard to find; even
    more than normal. Traffic congestion increased quite a bit. A guy who
    reported to me at work (who didn't own a car) had a major problem
    getting to work during the 1998 SEPTA strike even though he only lived a
    few miles from our office. Lots of my other colleagues were
    significantly inconvenienced during that strike, which lasted 40 days.

    When the gas price was around $4 per gallon, public transportation use
    spiked in the Philadelphia area. During that time, I noticed a
    significant reduction in road traffic when I drove to and from work.
    When public transportation use rose, there were fewer cars on the roads,
    which means less pollution, less traffic, fewer delays, less wear and
    tear on the roads, etc. Funding public transportation is a no-brainer,
    its a win-win situation for all concerned, even for people in areas of
    the state that don't benefit from public transportation because it means
    more money to maintain highways can be spent in their area.
     
    Shawn Hirn, Jan 15, 2009
    #69
  10. Tim Howard

    Shawn Hirn Guest

    And someone in Philadelphia might reasonably ask if the fuel taxes that
    guy in Wyoming pays is enough to offset his use of the highways in his
    area, or if Wyoming needs federal help to build and maintain highways.
    If your friend only drives on weekends, he's foolish to maintain a car
    in Manhattan. He's better off joining Zip Car or some other car share
    organization, or just renting when he needs to drive. When I lived in
    Center City, I got along fine without owning a car, and that was before
    the advent of companies like Philly Car Share. I simply rented a car on
    those weekends when I needed to drive. I have a dear friend who lives on
    Manhattan's Upper East Side and she manages to get along fine without
    ever driving, even on weekends.

    Even in the suburbs in NJ where I live now, I consider my Prius as much
    of a luxury as a necessity. I went for four months, a few years ago
    without a car as an experiment. I managed to get along without one, but
    there were times when it was a PITA, like when I had to be at work at
    5:00am twice. Even though I live in a different state from where my
    office is, it takes me a total of 90 minutes to walk to PATCO station,
    take the train over the Delaware River, then walk the three miles to my
    office. On nice days, I still do that if I wake up early enough.

    Not once during my experiment did my lack of a car impede my ability to
    do my job. I know my situation is not generalizable, but I suspect there
    are a lot of people, even those who live in suburban areas like I do,
    who can get by fairly well without a car. I drive to work most days
    purely because its more convenient then public transportation, not
    because its necessary. Like today when I plan to visit my parents for
    dinner after work. To do that via public transportation would add a
    total of about three hours onto my travel time, but in my car, I will
    spend maybe 40 minutes in total driving to work, then to my parents,
    then home again.
    I agree. I am a big fan of public transportation, especially in densely
    populated areas such as Philly and NYC, but I like the idea of opening
    up public transportation routes to private entities. I am not proposing
    that government supported public transportation agencies close, only
    that their monopoly be whittled down some.
     
    Shawn Hirn, Jan 15, 2009
    #70
  11. Tim Howard

    Shawn Hirn Guest

    It evens out though because those who can use the CTA help pay for the
    cost of the roads you use.
     
    Shawn Hirn, Jan 15, 2009
    #71
  12. You never heard of Illinois? We have a county known as Cook (should be
    called Crook) where the current County Board preisident keeps spending more
    and more and more and probably spends more than many states. He's paying to
    keep his family and his father's cronies on the payroll. Won't fire or
    retire any of them, never mind that most of them are glorified
    chair-warmers.

    And Illinois itself would have had a surplus, had both Lyin Ryan and
    Governor BlowJob not gone to spending the state's largesse to buy still more
    votes and curry more favor with the Outfit and the Unions. Revenues until
    last year were way up, but state spending was increasing at over twice the
    rate of the revenue increase. Instead of retireing old debt (which Illinois
    has from foolish spending in the past.), or putting money away in case of
    revenue downturns, Lyin Ryan comes up with Illinois First, and Governor
    BlowJob spends money on the IPiss system so he can put his name all over it.
    And for some reason, every year I-294 is getting 'resufaced' or 'widened'
    for the last 10 years in exactly the same spot, just south of the IBEW union
    hall. And a newly built I-355 (just opened November 2007) is getting
    'resurfacing' work already. All that is there is 'make work' to keep the
    construction unions happy.

    If you want to argue about schools, I think they ought to entirely close the
    public school system anyway. Instead of an education center, they've become
    liberal indoctrination centers. Kids complete high school thouroughly
    indoctrinated, but unable to read and write and think for themselves and
    with little knowledge of what really made this country great. They know
    political correctness and 'They Owes It To Me', and that's about it. I've
    seen some of the public screwel system 'graduates'. Part of the reason
    we've got so many illegal aliens is they know more than your average public
    screwel system graduate. By the time I graduated high school back in the
    stone age, it was already obvious what was happening. I had to teach
    myself. I could tell that outcomes had already been downshifted over one
    grade year from when my father went to the same schools 30 years before.
    They still used some of the same textbooks (new revision, of course) as my
    Dad had, but he had the same courses a year earlier than I did. In one
    case, TWO years earlier. And he was in the 'technical' course, I was in the
    'college prep' course.

    So public schools are not for the kids. They're only to curry favor with
    the NEA. They're indoctrination centers for 'political correctness' but
    they're not there to teach the kids anymore.

    Sir Charles the Curmudgeon.
     
    CharlesTheCurmudgeon, Jan 15, 2009
    #72
  13. Tim Howard

    Brent Guest

    The hell? gasoline taxes for road use are per gallon, not a price
    percentage. The sales tax, which doesn't go to road use is a percentage.
    At least in every state and county and city I'm familiar with.
    So? The SUV is heavier.
    But then it's unlimited free extra impact miles after that difference is
    made up.
     
    Brent, Jan 15, 2009
    #73
  14. Tim Howard

    Brent Guest

    replace 'liberal' with 'government'.
    I've seen this license plate frame a couple times now:
    "Prosperity is my birthright"

    This greater depression is going to be all sorts of fun as the
    government is used as weapon to destroy what's left of the productive
    sector for behalf of the parasite economy. (both the very wealthy that
    control the government and those living on government handouts)
    they are more like prisons to get kids used to the controlling state.
     
    Brent, Jan 15, 2009
    #74
  15. Tim Howard

    Brent Guest

    The fares do not cover the cost of the ride and well come to chicago
    where blago is taxing millions of people to give those who reached the
    age of 65 free rides on the CTA.
     
    Brent, Jan 15, 2009
    #75
  16. Tim Howard

    Brent Guest

    This makes no sense. The road taxes that a non-driver pays go to the
    most local of roads. The same roads the buses they take use. The taxes
    paid by a non-driver who lives in wrigleyville do not in any way support
    the driving of someone living out in Naperville.
     
    Brent, Jan 15, 2009
    #76
  17. Tim Howard

    DanKMTB Guest

    It does, and yet it's not used as much as you would think (at least
    around here) and there's good reason for it. When I lived in Boston
    and worked in Newburyport, it was cheaper and faster for me to drive
    to and from work than it was for me to take the train. Going the
    other way traffic may eliminate the time difference, but it's still
    likely cheaper to be in your car than on the train. If the train
    didn't take just over an hour to cover a 35 minute drive the appeal to
    pay more would likely be much greater.
     
    DanKMTB, Jan 15, 2009
    #77
  18. Tim Howard

    Mike Hunter Guest

    The point is vehicle owners are taxed in various ways by the federal, state
    and is some cases the municipal governments, to help pay the cost of
    operating mass transit systems. The largest single portion of the federal
    gas tax is going to mass transit rather than the interstate roadways. Why
    do we allow the government to do that?

    Why should those that use the system NOT be paying their own way, as do
    those that choose to use Taxis and limo services, rather than making vehicle
    owners pay from them to ride for less?

    When I am in Philadelphia or NYC I engage a limo service, rather than
    subjecting myself to the
    idiosyncrasies of public transit system.


    It does, and yet it's not used as much as you would think (at least
    around here) and there's good reason for it. When I lived in Boston
    and worked in Newburyport, it was cheaper and faster for me to drive
    to and from work than it was for me to take the train. Going the
    other way traffic may eliminate the time difference, but it's still
    likely cheaper to be in your car than on the train. If the train
    didn't take just over an hour to cover a 35 minute drive the appeal to
    pay more would likely be much greater.
     
    Mike Hunter, Jan 15, 2009
    #78
  19. That's a valid option. When money's tight, cutting back is
    important.
    Lay them off, rather.
    How is that going to reduce expenditures? They'll have to hire extra
    security to keep people out of the closed parks.
    Then they might actually have to (horrors) cut the unimportant stuff
    that gets the campaign contributions along with the police, fire, and
    libraries.
     
    Matthew Russotto, Jan 15, 2009
    #79
  20. So you're claiming it's a major inconvenience, rather than a minor
    one. That's a long way from being "unable to function".
    I didn't. And the Schuylkill Expressway sure didn't seem any less busy.
    Buses put a lot more wear and tear on the roads than cars. And trucks
    (which are not impacted by public transportation) do most of the
    damage. So no, you won't get less wear by increasing public
    transportation use. Buses also cause traffic delays and belch enormous
    clouds of diesel smoke.
    Only you have no brain.
     
    Matthew Russotto, Jan 15, 2009
    #80
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