Oil changes

I own an 2007 Saturn Aura XR with about 59,000 miles. I've had the
car since July of last year and so far I've put on about 23,000
miles. I drive on average of about 950 miles per week. I've only had
the oil changed twice in the nearly 6 months that I've owned it. Both
times that I've had it changed I've waited until the "oil life"
reading on the DIC had decremented itself down to 0%. Today, when I
was in for my most recent oil change, the oil change tech scolded me
for not bringing in the car sooner. I specified that it had been
nearly 11,000 miles since my last change but that the oil life reading
had only very recently went all the way down to 0%. He told me that I
can't use that as an indicator as to when the oil should be changed if
I'm using standard oil. He said that I'd need to be using a premium
type oil in order to go that long without a change. I double checked
my owners manual and reread the portion that talked about oil
changes. As I expected, the manual said that the car uses the onboard
computer to determine when the oil needs to be changed. As well, the
manual didn't say anything at all about only using high grade
synthetic oils. My question is this - if I'm using regular grade 10w
- 30 oil should I "trust" the car and only get my oil changed when the
life meter decrements itself all the way down to, or near, 0% (even if
this means that 10 or 11 thousand miles have passed since my last
change) or should I religiously change my oil every 3 months or 3,000
miles as has been preached to us since time immeasurable. I think
that the oil change tech was probably just regurgitating what he was
told when he was hired - "tell everyone that has gone more then 3
months or 3,000 miles since their last change that this is a bad
practice and that it should be done every 3 months or 3,000
regardless." Thanks for any help!

 

I regularly check my oil level. (after all, most saturn's consume some oil)
Don't just look at the level of the oil on the dipstick, look at the color
too (and smell). When it is getting dark, it's probably worth changing.

The change oil indicator is set by the ECU and is related to engine
temperature, RPM and interval since last change. It is good but not
infallible.

 

Shawn,
Remember, the mechanic has a goal of you changing your oil more
frequently. A biased opinion indeed. I just don't like when a shop
gets aggressive at pushing an oil change or other maintenance when I
have to take it in for a state inspection. A simple "No thanks" falls
on deaf ears. I had an oil change done in December as my state
inspection was due. I usually do my own oil change, but thought I was
going to have the inspection shop do it as it was too cold and miserable
outside to do it myself. They charged $40.00 for the oil change. The
last time I had any shop do an oil change was about 15 years ago and it
was $25.00.

chuck

 

From the standpoint of the Saturn techs I used to work with, specifically
how they handled their *own* newer cars (and one of the best guys did in
fact have an '07 Aura):

They were more comfortable with the 3 month/3000 mile framework, but
recognized that the gap can be longer on the newer cars. That said, they
were really uncomfortable with letting it go longer than 5 mos/5000 miles.

It's all fine and good to say "well, the COMPUTER said I didn't need to
bother to change my oil that often." The problem with that is that long
gaps (especially miles) between changes does shorten the life of the engine
somewhat. And knowing that you followed the wishes of the computer will not
be much consolation if you end up having major engine problems at a
relatively young engine age.

--pig

 

Thanks to all that provided an informative reply!

 

If your computer is wrong, it will not be paying for your repairs!

IMHO,
Modern oils are better than older formulations.
Modern metallurgy and manufacturing processes and tolerances are better and
more consistent than in the past, QC is also better.
Most modern machinery IS MUCH BETTER and is capable of a far longer service
life.
Oil does NOT wear out.

But-
IMHO, The problem with extending oil change intervals is that the still not
worn out? oil will contain high amounts of suspended wear particles as well
as chemical impurities that are both harmful to operating and non operating
machinery. IMHO the use of expensive premium or synthetic oils makes
virtually no difference to the oil contamination levels, and their use is
not reason enough to extend drain intervals. IMHO, Synthetic is superior
but can be justified only in very cold (artic) use, but that usage also
probably qualifies as severe and would also require reduced drain intervals.

Oil change intervals are a management problem. Too soon or too long are
both inefficient and uneconomic as well as both increasing environmental
harm.

After break-in, I experimented with extending the drain intervals on my then
new S1 series to the recommended maximum of 10,000km (6000mi) but was not
happy with either the look of the drained oil or the lab analysis or the
burnoff rate which was much higher after about the 6000km (3600mi) mark. I
adopted a 6000km drain interval for the first 250,000km then shortened that
to the current 5000km (3000mi) interval.

Others S series experience and opinion is that the timing chain tensioner is
the first part that will gum up and fail from old dirty oil. Keeping this
part functioning properly will save MUCH more in repair costs than any
savings from extended drain intervals.

IMHO economic management suggests that the best time to change oil is when
the engine is down to the add mark as a full change only costs 3 ltrs (and a
filter) more than a simple add. If you are really frugal you could change
the filter every second change, but I prefer to change both at the same time
for lots of reasons.

I now have 340,000km on the car and get ~1800km to the first ltr oil add,
then ~1600km to the second ltr add. It will normally be down to the third
add mark after ~1200 more and at that point I think it is a good time to
just drain and refill with clean.

Once you have the few simple tools and some experience, changing oil is
simple and a LOT quicker AND much cheaper than getting poor quality bulk oil
and filters from a change $hop. It also gives me a chance to do a good
visual inspection for leaks or other problems. I have learned to change the
filter OK but have never found a good way to solve the oil spill from the
filter problem and just place a rag on the frame under the axle. I use
ramps made from 2 thicknesses of 2x8 nailed together and bevelled at the
front edge, (I suspect a bigger guy would need three thicknesses).

I purchase my filters by the dozen or more whenever I can negotiate a good
price from a parts jobber. I use only top quality filters (currently Wix,
never Fram). I have tried most quality oils but my current year round
favorite is Wally's Super Tech in 5w30, I buy several cases whenever the
price is right.

I refill ltr size containers from the large 4ltr jugs and carry 2 in the car
so I can add when only down a little bit and try to run near the full mark
all the time. One ltr fits beside the brake master cylinder and the second
on the right lower side of the rad.

I think that frequent oil changes are the easiest and cheapest way of
minimizing repair co$t$ and of maximizing service life. The only thing
worse than not changing your engine (and transmission) oil is not checking
the levels regularly (EVERY fuel up, or more) frequently. It is more
important to change transmission oil frequently (first one @ ~10,000km then
second @50,000km) when the car is new and IMHO intervals can be extended (to
100,000km+) after good (150,000km) break-in. A manual trans change only
uses under 3 ltrs and is cheap easy maintenance. I use only extended life
coolant and change that every 5 years.

This car has 340,000km, and has had no engine or trans problems or repairs,
is still on the factory clutch and original water pump. Alternators are
reported as problematic so I picked up a used spare but am still on the
original. IMHE, 'nothing you have a spare part for ever breaks.'

Good luck, YMMV

 

Thanks so much for the helpful information. . .!!

 

I used to take my 92 Saturn SL1 to the dealer for oil changes when it
was new, as this is what I was told by their salespeople.
Little did I know, I could have taken it to Mr. Lube and paid half of
what the dealership charged me (about 60 dollars back in early
nineties), but... I was young and stupid back then and didn't know any
better.

Soon as the warranty expired, I started doing my own changes and at
100,000 km I switched to Synthetic. Almost 18 years later I'm still
using the same brand of Synth oil and a el-cheapo filter from Canadian
Tire.
The car now has 554,000 kms on it (334,000 mi) and about the only
MAJOR engine job I had to do on it was timing chain swap about 2
months ago (one of the guides shattered).
The compression in each cylinder is 185+ PSI cold and dry. Engine
consumes about a quart every 10,000 kms (6000 mi) and that's when I do
my changes too - no sooner and no later than that.

Alex

 

Congratulations, sounds like you have broke the bank on this one. Your
cumulative miles suggest that you probably do a lot of highway driving.
Is that correct?

My 97 SL2 has been good to me. Currently have 209,000 miles. The first
7 years was virtually all highway driving, which I think contributed to
its longevity. I did dealer oil changes about every 3000 miles, but
they only charged $19 - $25 each.

I'm now considering dropping it and buying something other than GM. I'm
kinda' pissed off at them. The A/C compressor died this winter, and I'm
not looking forward to a summer of sweltering heat. I figure 13 years
is pretty good, but now it's time to put Old Yeller down.

JimR

 

IMHO, This is excellent service life, and your maintenance program and
schedule is obviously working well for your driving conditions and your
driving style. I suspect you do mostly highway with few short trips, have a
std tranny and keep your revs low. Are you still on your original clutch?

Good luck,

 

Thanks!

I did exactly that ever since I got the car. Kept the revs at between
2000 and 2500 on the highway, which put me at around 60-65 mph. VERY
RARELY has the engine gone past 2500 RPM.
I did a lot of highway driving up until about 3 years ago when I got
transferred to a work location much closer to my house. I used to
drive about 40 miles each way for about 15 years, 80% of which was
highway miles. The engine went through all sorts of weather conditions
that you can encounter up here in the Toronto area - very hot summers
and cold winters - I think the money I invested in Synthetic oil sure
have paid off.
I currently drive about 15 miles each way, and it's a 50-50 mix
highway/city streets. I have a feeling that this increased stress will
eventually kill the clutch, which has never been replaced since I
bought the car.

 

Thanks Jim!
Guys at work are telling me that I have contributed to Saturn's demise
by not buying any more of their cars. LOL.
I had no reason to. The car runs great and is very low on
maintenance.... well, except the last year when all sorts of problems
crept up (new rack and pinion, power steering pump and hoses, timing
chain, alternator to name a few).
I better not say anything positive about the car or it will start
giving me new troubles. LOL.
Much like your car, I strongly believe the longevity of mine was due
to a lot of highway driving (SENSIBLE highway driving - not speeding,
jackrabbit starts, etc) however now that I've been transferred to a
different work location, I have a feeling that the clutch may not be
able to handle the extra stress as I'm doing a 50/50 mix of highway
and city street driving.
I am thinking of getting another car as well and much like yourself
I'm leaning towards a non-GM product. Same reason - I'm pissed at them
and probably for the same reason as you.
Good luck with your search!

Alex

 

snip

Thanks!

I did exactly that ever since I got the car. Kept the revs at between
2000 and 2500 on the highway, which put me at around 60-65 mph. VERY
RARELY has the engine gone past 2500 RPM.
I did a lot of highway driving up until about 3 years ago when I got
transferred to a work location much closer to my house. I used to
drive about 40 miles each way for about 15 years, 80% of which was
highway miles. The engine went through all sorts of weather conditions
that you can encounter up here in the Toronto area - very hot summers
and cold winters - I think the money I invested in Synthetic oil sure
have paid off.
I currently drive about 15 miles each way, and it's a 50-50 mix
highway/city streets. I have a feeling that this increased stress will
eventually kill the clutch, which has never been replaced since I
bought the car.

I am impressed with both your service life and your disciplined driving
style, it verifies much of what I have suggested previously. I will admit
to reving slightly higher than you on occasion (usually under 3000 but
occasionally higher) but in my defense also operate on much steeper mountain
grades than you do, and often haul considerable weight. I have always
thought that the S series SOHC engines greatest unappreciated strength was
the flat low RPM torque curve that permits most operation at low engine
speed which considerably reduces engine wear and fuel consumption.

I am unaware if you are a pilot in addition to your navaidtech work. Most
people are unaware that aircraft engines operate in a similar RPM range and
are designed with a flat torque curve. They use larger displacement engines
operating at relatively low (1500-2700 rpm) to maximize service life and
reliability. Smaller higher reving (Rotax and others) engines seldom have
as long a TBO (time between overhaul) as the lower operating speed
Continentals and Lycomings. The SOHC S series engine torque peak is at 2400
rpm. Torque peak is usually the point of maximum volumetric efficiency and
of min fuel consumption (per HP produced)

The SOHC S series 5sp transmission has quite a low gear ratio in 1st gear
which combined with the engines good low speed torque allows one to get
rolling at low engine speed and without excessive clutch slippage. (Heavy
vehicle drivers are trained to start out in the gear which will allow
start-up without adding throttle.) I find that the shift to 2nd gear can be
made in a very short distance and at quite low engine speed. I am a big
believer in 'progressive shifting' where the shift point rpms are
progressively raised as we work our way up the trany, but with the shifts
been made as soon as possible. This is sometimes called 'short shifting'.
I think this is the major factor in long clutch life but you should claim
much of the credit for having and performing good and disciplined driving
skills, I bet you keep your foot away from the clutch pedal unless you are
using it.

I hesitate to suggest that you vary a maintenance schedule which is
obviously working well, but most engines experience increased oil
contamination rates as they age and this will also be increased by short
trips, particularly in the winter months as the engine oil will spend less
time at full operating temperature which will reduce moisture boil off and
crankcase cleaning through the PCV valve and cause increased acid formation
in the oil. Due to your decreased trip lengths, I would suggest that you
consider reducing your change intervals particularly during the cold months.

I hope you can make it to 1,000,000 km. consider this a challenge.

Good luck, YMMV

 

3 month/3000 miles is my standard

'94 SC2 still going strong > 200k miles
Fred

 

Thank you... I never thought I'd be able to keep up with this style of
driving but it's been 18 years and I stuck to my old guns, LOL. The
car does occasionally see around 3000 RPM but not often enough. The
area where I live is flat as a pancake... we do have some hills and
valleys north of us but I don't go there that often.

Nope, not a pilot... just looking after all the navaids in the Toronto
area.

Yes... I've noticed that as well.

Yes, this is something that my Dad told me a looong time ago - never
keep your foot on the clutch unless you have to. As such, my shifter
is always in neutral and my left foot is off the clutch pedal when I'm
stopped at the lights. I'm still not sure what he meant by it, but I
do remember him saying that when the clutch is depressed, there is
some component in the transaxle that is doing some work and wears out
over time. Unfortunately, my knowledge of manual transmissions is
extremely limited (I can fix just about anything else in that car BUT
the transmission) so I can't even picture as to what he was referring
to.
Bottom line is that his advice (whether right or wrong it might be)
stuck with me and quite possibly prolonged the life of the
clutch....maybe?

You know what? I agree with you and I think I'll start doing just
that. Too bad this didn't occur to me sooner...

Oh boy... that will be tough. WIth my current driving schedule, it
would take me about 20+ years to get up to a mil. The car is slowly
falling apart in other places and I have a feeling that the engine
will outlast the body, LOL. However, I will try to keep the car as
long as I can until my wife threatens me with a divorce, LOL. You
should have seen her face when I told her about the timing chain
trouble and the car was on its last legs a couple of months back...
she lit up like a Christmas tree and said "Does that mean you're
getting rid of this piece of s... and buying a new car???". But in the
end, when I fixed the car, her mood changed drastically.

Thanks!!!

Alex

 

snip

Yes, this is something that my Dad told me a looong time ago - never
keep your foot on the clutch unless you have to. As such, my shifter
is always in neutral and my left foot is off the clutch pedal when I'm
stopped at the lights. I'm still not sure what he meant by it, but I
do remember him saying that when the clutch is depressed, there is
some component in the transaxle that is doing some work and wears out
over time. Unfortunately, my knowledge of manual transmissions is
extremely limited (I can fix just about anything else in that car BUT
the transmission) so I can't even picture as to what he was referring
to.
Bottom line is that his advice (whether right or wrong it might be)
stuck with me and quite possibly prolonged the life of the
clutch....maybe?

You are refering to the 'clutch release bearing' aka 'throwout bearing'.
This bearing bears on the release forks of the clutch pressure plate when
the clutch pedal is depressed. It is normally lifetime lubricated but that
lifetime is affected by total time in operation, which is greatly reduced by
placing trans in neutral (foot off the pedal) like you correctly do at stop
lights. This bearing is normally replaced whenever the cluch driven plate
is replaced.

When the clutch is released (pedal depressed), the driving surfaces
(flywheel and pressure plate) are rotating very close (probably touching on
one side) to the driven clutch plate surfaces, and while this will not
provide substantial torque transfer, IMHO there is still wear to the now
stationary driven plate as well as heat generation.

You indicate good driver disipline and training and IMHO this is a big
reason for your good service life.

Happy trails,
snip

 

Yes! He did mention some sort of a bearing and that must be it. Thank
you for confirming it for me.

You seem to be very knowledgeable on the subject. Thank you for your
kind words... coming from you they really mean a lot to me.

Alex