Off to car heaven

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by Canuck57, Feb 20, 2009.

  1. Canuck57

    me Guest

    But they're going out of business. So why does that matter?
     
    me, Feb 23, 2009
    #41
  2. Canuck57

    DervMan Guest

    You're right. There's a significant number of the population that will only
    buy American. The numbers are declining, but are still there. Saturns and
    Saabs are not American enough to appeal to this group. They're also not
    European enough to appeal to those drivers who want something European
    (typically meaning BMW or VAG stuff as Mercedes seems to have always been
    its own appeal). Then there's the growing numbers who buy Japanese because
    "it works."

    The same thing sort of happened in the UK; when the population realised that
    most of the home-built cars really were not put together properly and really
    did apart after four years but the European / Japanese stuff was still
    working, trends changed. Many Rovers were considered to be good cars in
    their day, usually had design faults or characteristics, but weren't so
    "meh" to drive as something Japanese nor as expensive as something European.

    Ahhh I remember the import restrictions on Japanese cars in the early
    1980s...
     
    DervMan, Feb 23, 2009
    #42
  3. Canuck57

    Charles C Guest

    The restrictions for Japanese cars still exist across the EU as far as I
    know (import quotas), and they whey the Japanese bypassed that was to
    set up factories within the EU. Imported cars are still subject to quotas.
     
    Charles C, Feb 23, 2009
    #43
  4. Canuck57

    Mike Marlow Guest

    There is not really any "significant" number of the population that will
    only buy American. Never has been - at least not for the past 30 years.
    There have been buy American campaigns, but outside of those groups that
    fostered those campaigns, there has never really been a successful movement
    to do so. There certainly is not now.
    Saturn was designed to appeal to a very narrow group and it did so. It's
    own reputation is what hurt Saturn. Saab is not an American car regardless
    who owns it. Saab has though, held quite steadily to it's market segment.
    It never did develop a large market segment, but not because it wasn't
    American enough.
    I think you are over analyzing this stuff.
     
    Mike Marlow, Feb 23, 2009
    #44
  5. Canuck57

    Vic Smith Guest

    Baloney. I know many people who will only buy Ford, GM or Chrysler.
    A significant number of people.
    If you don't know this it's only because of the company you keep.
    But you don't have to personally know these people.
    http://promomagazine.com/research/car-shoppers-buy-american-0109/
    "One-third of respondents to the survey conducted by Kelley Blue Book
    Marketing Research said they would only buy cars produced in America,
    while 12% indicated interest in buying Japanese-made cars and 5%
    expressed a preference for German vehicles."

    If that's not clear enough, another take
    http://www.wmur.com/automotive/18445529/detail.html
    "One-third of new-vehicle shoppers say they would only consider cars
    from U.S.-based manufacturers such as General Motors, Ford or
    Chrysler, and that they would not consider vehicles from any other
    countries."

    One third is a significant number.
    And that number has been much higher less than thirty years ago.
    If you have something to dispute except opinion, fire away.

    --Vic
     
    Vic Smith, Feb 23, 2009
    #45
  6. Canuck57

    Mike Marlow Guest

    Ok - I'll conceed to a certain point. I'll contend though that it is more
    because of what they like in those cars than it is because of a
    nationalistic thing - which I may have mistakenly read into the original
    post. I was responding to that nationalisitic thought - which may not have
    been what the OP intended in his post.
    Ok - I'll conceed again. That percentage actually surprises me somewhat.
    Relax Vic. Geezus - you're getting too fired up over this. It's only a
    usenet conversation - complete with opinions.
     
    Mike Marlow, Feb 23, 2009
    #46
  7. Canuck57

    Vic Smith Guest

    No anger intended. Sorry if it sounded that way.
    But it is actually a hot button of mine, as I buy American for
    nationalistic reasons. And that quote above says I'm not alone.
    "Not consider" seems to imply that,
    At the same time, I'm highly pissed at the "Big 3" for producing so
    much crap, and don't begrudge others for going foreign.
    Since I buy used, and know what to pick, I get very good value in
    buying GM. So I can't say it's *all* nationalistic. Some is just
    being frugal with cars.
    If I were a new car buyer, especially one who got burned by the 3, I
    might think differently.
    So until I kick in more than my normal few grand for a car, my
    credibility is suspect.

    --Vic
     
    Vic Smith, Feb 23, 2009
    #47
  8. Canuck57

    Canuck57 Guest

    If you buy American for nationalistic reasons, lets define this further. Do
    you mean world wide headquarters are in the USA?

    I ask that as I don't believe there is a 100% American vehicle in common
    consumer market today, not a one. If it is American content you are after,
    you might be surprized the Japanese named branded often have higher NA
    content that others even the D3. Which also raises, did the parts come from
    US, Mexico or Canada? In a typical vehicle today, any manuafacturer there
    are at least 10 countries involved. Electronics from Tiawan, bolts for
    Japan, seats from Mexico as was the engine block. Steel from China, frames
    from Canada, rubber from Brazil, etc.

    So if shopping American made is your goal, could be a Japanese name to go
    with it. The D3 myth is that only D3 make American went by the wayside over
    30 years ago and has been decaying ever since to a point that judging by the
    name for American content no longer is a truism.
     
    Canuck57, Feb 23, 2009
    #48
  9. Canuck57

    Henrik B. Guest

    Wrong! The American's hasn't learned a thing yet. Just look at which car was
    the best selling in the US in 2008!!
    It was only because the gas-prices where skyrocketing, that the Americans
    started to look for alternatives. Now as gas-prices has lowerede again, the
    people who can afford to buy a new car, are right back on the ol' track....

    I'll bet, that the 2008 bestseller, will become so again in 2009....!

    Cheers!
     
    Henrik B., Feb 23, 2009
    #49
  10. There have been some good cars produced under those names...and I hope
    they'll find a way to continue. But...not under GM. GM has acquired
    other companies for years beginning with Oldsmobile and ending with
    Hummer. By and large it's been a 101-year disaster. GM has only one
    way of doing things and it's not a good one now for the 21st century.
    When they have such a large market share, their disaster becomes our
    disaster. A steadily shrinking GM is much better for the American
    economy than a suddenly-collapsing one. The entire idea behind 'GM' is
    wrong in the age of instant messaging and widespread computer tools
    (top-down management and corporate structure, stifled innovation, the
    total is more important than the sums, etc.) and it's time for 'GM' to
    slowly fade into history and give way to manufacturing structures from
    other companies more attuned to contemporary times. GM was the right
    idea for the industrial revolution in the early 20th century but now
    they are way past their time. The best thing that could possibly happen
    to the brands listed above is to cut loose. Maybe they'll go out of
    business but they would have gone away anyway and this way they might
    have a chance at some sort of new life.
     
    David T. Johnson, Feb 23, 2009
    #50
  11. Canuck57

    Vic Smith Guest

    It's really simple. Whatever product provides the most work here.
    I could not care less about corporations - or shareholders.
    Of course. That's why the U.S. is essentially bankrupt.
    That's BS on the 30 years. Check your facts.
    If it had been that long the balance of trade deficit would have got
    us to where we now are years ago.
    It took little longer than 20 years for unbridled globalism to do us
    in.
    It was mid-80's before a Jap car became a sales leader here.
    Think it was the Camry in 85 or 87.
    Probably all were imported from Japan.
    Even then the Camry was considerably outsold by the GM equivalent when
    Chevy/Buick/Old same frame models were combined.
    That would be Chevy Celebrity/Olds Ciera/Pontiac 6000.
    Hell, the Jap plants here were importing most of their parts from
    Japan well into the 90's.
    I would buy a Jap car that provided more work here before I'd buy a
    mostly Mexican or Canadian made "American" car.
    BTW, I consider Canada a foreign country too, and our trade deficit
    with them should be balanced.
    Balance of trade is not a difficult concept to understand.
    Others can do what suits them.

    --Vic
     
    Vic Smith, Feb 23, 2009
    #51
  12. Canuck57

    me Guest

    There's a large number of people who will always buy a truck or SUV
    (regardless of the fact that they don't need it). Big toys for little
    boys. Cowboys on the road.

    At the same time, quite a few Americans have smartened up and few have
    the anti-foreign or "buy American" idiocy they had in the past. The
    change in mix of cars in the USA over the last 30 years is
    significant.
     
    me, Feb 23, 2009
    #52
  13. Canuck57

    me Guest

    The company I keep ranges form kids getting out of high school to WW
    II vets. At all levels, people are buying foreign. Attitudes have
    changed significantly over the last 30 years. There are not many folks
    left who will only "buy American". In contrast, I know quite a few
    folks that have espoused "never by another American made POS again".
    Seem the Big 3 dug themselves into quite a hole with the unwanted,
    unreliable crap they've manufactured.
    Another meaningless "what would you buy" and "what do you prefer"
    survey. Check the percentage of vehicles on the road for Japanese &
    other non-American manufacturers. Try to prove that actual buying
    habits reflect that survey in any way, shape, or form.
     
    me, Feb 23, 2009
    #53
  14. Canuck57

    Mike Marlow Guest

    Amazing - we buy in exactly the same way. I did switch from GM to Hyundai
    for the last two cars, and it's been good for me, but I was
    dyed-in-the-wool GM for the longest time - over 35 years. Like you, I got
    really pissed at GM for the manner in which they treated customers and
    ignored longstanding problems with their designs. I too only buy used
    (usually 1-2 model years old, 25K miles or so typically). I've had great
    GM cars, but the amount of repeat work I used to do on them finally pissed
    me off enough that I tried something else. Now - I wish they'd get rid of
    the Board and Wagoner, and get back to making the great cars that they are
    capable of, and standing behind them.
     
    Mike Marlow, Feb 23, 2009
    #54
  15. Canuck57

    PerfectReign Guest

    Actually, my wife's SUV (Saturn VUE) is quite small. Not sure why you equate
    SUV with huge size.

    I only have a midsize Avalanche. I'd love an Excursion but they are just
    too big to fit in the tiny parking stalls they make nowdays.

    I was having a discussion with one of my staff members just a few minutes
    ago.

    He had just bought a '09 Infiniti (Nissan) G37s Coupe. I was telling him
    how I'd be interested in either the new Maxima (2009) or a Malibu for my
    wife. (She prefers sports sedans to her SUV, now that the kids can enter
    and exit the car themselves.)

    He commented how neither he nor his friends would ever buy an American car.
    Keep in mind, he's 24 and single.

    I see it every day. I wrote this on the Avalanche Club site back in late
    December. I was leaving the park with my rugrats and noticed the cars in
    the lot.


    There were two Mercedes.
    One BMW.
    Two Lexus.
    Two Toyota.
    One Honda.
    One Acura.
    One Infiniti

    Now, though the Mercedes was nice - it was a S600 - I felt a bit overwhelmed
    by the fact that the only North American vehicle there was my Avalanche.
    You can certainly see that US cars are in the minority where I live.
     
    PerfectReign, Feb 23, 2009
    #55
  16. Canuck57

    Adrian Guest

    Which we get as the Vauxhall/Opel Antara, basically the same things as
    the Chevrolet (Daewoo) Captiva. Hardly "small".
    Because they tend to be.
    That's "midsize" as in "roughly the size of a house", I presume?

    Oh, and please don't just change follow-ups mid-thread. It's a fairly
    authoritative sign of a fuckwit.
     
    Adrian, Feb 23, 2009
    #56
  17. Canuck57

    Canuck57 Guest

    Doubtful GM will come back this time. GM is like when the Titanic went
    under and someone asked how to avoid the collision. A tad bit too late once
    the holds are full of water. If the GM board and Wagoner were going to
    turn the GM dog around, he should have started a long time ago. And
    Wagoner, for making $14.4M in 2007, doesn't seem to own too much GM stock.

    And most people concur, this depression is here to stay, which will seal GMs
    prediciment.
     
    Canuck57, Feb 23, 2009
    #57
  18. Canuck57

    Canuck57 Guest

    The best thing for GM is what Wagoner wants to avoid as his salary will be
    cut. Chapter 11. Chapter 11 forces the issues to be resolved by creditors,
    suppliers, unions, management with a no BS right now attitude. For if they
    don't, chapter 7.

    In chapter 7, worst case GM as it exists now is sold off to recover as much
    as possible for the creditors. Everything will be sold off. This also
    includes the GM trademarks and plants.

    With GM in chapter 7, some smart billionaires will buy enough of GM without
    the baggage and start GM New, maybe even eventually relisted as GMN.
    Seriously, a GM reborn but without the baggage. Many will even be rehired
    but as if in a brand new company and in a way to bypass union issues, likely
    term contract work so if you are a trouble maker they just drop your
    renewal.

    It is also possible GM Europe and GM China are sold off into seperate
    business units with no real relationship to GM North America. And will go
    their own way.

    GM will not die completely, but it will be forced into a real and tangible
    re-organization without the rehtoric and BS seen so far.
     
    Canuck57, Feb 23, 2009
    #58
  19. Canuck57

    HLS Guest

    Lots of them, Bubba.. I drove one just recently. It was like a new car.
     
    HLS, Feb 24, 2009
    #59
  20. Canuck57

    PerfectReign Guest

    Have you ever driven in one?? My knees are pretty damn cramped in the car
    with the seat all the way back. Aside from the seats being way too narrow.
    Ford Escape? Saturn Vue? Toyota Rav4? Honda Pilot? Nissan Pathfinder? (I
    would still like to find one of the original two-door models.)

    Nope. At least my head doesn't touch the headliner much. :)
    Nah, it is just good usenet etiquette. No reason to xpost the follow ups all
    over.

    I'm surprised Pan doesn't do it for you. I haven't used Pan since "She
    Crawled Across the Floor" but IIRC, it did the same automatically. (I'm on
    KNode right now.)
     
    PerfectReign, Feb 24, 2009
    #60
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