morning only starting problem - DOHC S Series, 1993

Any guess, or bet, on what might be the cause of a very recent
startup problem that only seems to happen when starting up the
Saturn for the first time of the day only? Weird, it starts like
a rocket any other later time after that initial first-of-day
startup. The battery voltage is 12v in the morning prior to
startup. After I do manage to get it going, the voltage is
almost 15 volts from the charging of the alternator. When I try
to get it going initially, I turn the key on and nothing but
dash lights. Turn key, off and on, a couple of times and then it
starts up and runs beautifully. The rest of the day it starts
right up at the first turn of the key. The starter is quite new
and is a reman unit which has run great. Cleaned cables
everywhere when putting in the new starter. From what threads
I've perused, sensors seem to be a likely candidate. Fuel filter
is fairly new, with approximately 10k miles on it. New wires,
plugs, no oil leaks, clean EGR with new gasket. I do have to
short out the contacts to get the dash error codes. Just haven't
done that yet. Oh, the battery is fairly new also. It was
replaced less than a year ago. Do ETCS's go bad after a few
years or so? Just wondering, or how about CPS? I will reread my
Chilton book, but it seemed, if I recall correctly, that there
weren't any codes for these sensors when they get to be
borderline. Anyone with deep experience and has advice to give
here with my slight problem with my Saturn will be appreciated.
I don't have much green left to just throw parts into it and
certainly do not wish to visit the labor expensive auto repair
dudes as I just don't have anything to spare anymore. Thanks, I
hope..........

 

Is it a cold cranking issure - where it does not even turn over? If that's
the case, not a sensor.
There are usually three terminals on the starter solenoid: battery, start
and the connection to the starter motor.
Turning the ign key to the start position feeds battery voltage to the start
terminal on the solenoid. This pulls in the solenoid which both kicks out
the starter pinion gear to engage the flywheel and also closes a switch to
provide power to the starter motor. See if you get voltage at the start
terminal on the solenoid first and work from that point. You can force the
starter by jumping the connection from the solenoid start terminal to
battery.
Oppie

 

Please describe, in detail, the symptoms of the failure to start. We can't
read your mind so do not know if it cranks at all and does not catch or if
you have a no crank condition. Any guess without this very basic of
information would be a waste of time.

Bob

 

Sounds like a connection or ignition switch problem. As stated above,
you need to check for voltage at the starter terminal while attempting
to start. James

 

Sorry for not getting back to this thread sooner. Anyhow.......

OK, 1St thing in morning I put the key in and turn it whereupon
nothing happens. It does not crank the engine over. There's a
lot of dash lights lit up. There is a steady sound, that my
buddy thinks is the starter itself and that, he says, is turning
but the solenoid is not engaging the fly wheel. If this is so,
my question is, why would the starter run great later, and crank
the engine over, for the whole day after that initial
hard-to-get-going startup in the morning? This is a
re-manufactured palladium starter.

Anyone else getting some doofus posting in this newsgroup that
is cloning everyone's posting and has a lot of crap about the
end of the world stuff? I looked at their newsgroup header and
it has something like "" in it. Annoying.
How do you get rid of that?

 

Not out of the question for the starter to be defective and not have the
pinion gear properly get kicked out to drive the flywheel. Could also be a
failed over-running clutch - also in the starter. How old is the starter and
is it still in warranty?
Upon turning the ignition key, you should hear a loud klunk which is the
solenoid pulling in. This usually pushes out the pinion gear to engage the
flywheel (though some starters use a worm gear to push out the pinion).
Another unlikely possibility is that the starter is slightly misaligned.
Loosen the mounting bolts, wiggle about and re-tighten.

Cold weather will cause the solenoid to bind a bit. I had one that was a
problem below freezing. found that there was water getting into the starter
when I drove through a big puddle. Water froze overnight and wouldn't start
the next morning.

You could also check the voltage at the starter terminal from the ignition
switch. If there is an abnormal voltage drop, the solenoid may not have
enough power to pull in completely. (Rather than replace wiring or an
ignition switch it is often easier to simply add a relay).

 

Weak battery, corroded battery connections, bad cable(s), bad ground to
frame/engine, bad/loose connection at starter, defective ignition switch,
defective starter relay, defective solenoid, defective starter motor, or any
of the wiring in between. You should start with a good schematic and a
multi-meter and diagnose when the problem is exhibited to find the problem.
Good luck. Check/eliminate the simplest things first as this is usually the
cause.

Bob

 

Sounds like the starter again or a bad connection at the starter. I had a
remanufactured one
only last 3 months on my Saturn and was doing what you say. I had to get
another one. Free exchange. Sometimes you get a dud.

Fred
94 SC2

 

In Shark

Morning sickness? You know what that means ...

Hope it's a Sky.

 

Thanks for the advice. I'll get under the old auto when it warms
up a tad. Only got a parking lot out here to work from and since
it's in the below freezing cold range guess I'll have to hold
off awhile. Before all this happened the ~ 1year old starter ran
great. That makes me think the alignment couldn't have too far
off. Others suggested that the cables being original on this 93
might be corroded inside even though the cable exterior looks OK.

 

You might be right. I do have a limited lifetime replacement
warranty, if that's any good. Just hate to do this again,
especially out in the elements at this cold part of winter.

 

I hear you. A lot of these things you suggest I did check when
installing the starter a little less than a year ago. Now, I
still see no visible corrosion and there wasn't any showing a
year ago when I installed it. I do clean contacts everywhere
when doing these type of auto maintenance tasks. I can't check
out the wiring at the starter until it warms up at least for one
day. I also have to load test the battery which is also quite
new when I can get somewhere to do that. I had already checked
the ground to frame back then also. The rest would require my
pulling the starter which I don't really want to do now as I'm
out in snow country with no garage or warm place to work. I'll
have to limp along for awhile probably. I also have yet to check
the error codes to see if anything pops up.