more Saturn complaints (casting flaws cause cracked heads)

Saturn (GM) STANDARD OPERATING PROCEEDURE

When we at GM discover an epidemic costly flaw in our cars (like
casting flaws in our cylinder heads that will cause the head to
eventually CRACK); and before we become aware of the problem, tens of
thousands of cars with the flaw have gone off the assembly line to
dealers and customers


We withold that information (sending out a service notice) for as
long
as we can- so as to get as many of those cars affected, OVER the
warranty period. That way, we are not liable to cover the cost of the
repair or replacement and we are able to cut our loses!


Also: If a new car customer who has been taking his car to the dealer
for regular scheduled maintainance, CHANGES ADDRESS, and the dealer
fails to notify the company of the new address and because of this
dealer failure- we send out a service notice to the old address and
thus the notice never reaches the customer:


When the service notice is returned to us as "undeliverable"; we will
NOT make any attempt to reach the customer at his new address and
notify him of the service notice. We are not liable for our dealer's
failure nor will we take any action against our dealer for this
failure
in an attempt to compensate the customer,should he have been unaware
of
the notice and suffers a costly repair bill after his warranty has
run
out!


Anyone who doubts the above policy can contact (among many others):
Grand Rapids (Michigan) Saturn.


(That is; if anyone there admits his knowledge of and has the COURAGE
to verify the above policy)
signed.


Michael Cohrman



The above policy is known by many but I have never seen it posted
anywhere. If you want to verify or deny the above policy from your
own
experience- please do!

Want specific examples of GM witholding costly information on their
cars? Contact:


Patricia of Bath ME (9/15/03):
Cylinder head cracked, Saturn is aware there is a problem but their
position is, if it didn't happen in 6 years or 100,000 miles
(whichever
came first) I'm out of luck. Of course the local dealer will fix it
for
$1,800. I own a 1994 Saturn SW1 with 94,502 miles. The service
bullentin came out in 1999. I believe that they knew it to be a
defect
in the parts they used and it should be fixed no matter what the age
of
the car.


Of couse they would like the public to think that after their
timeframe
the car will never have the problem or by magic it will repair
itself.
If the only humans worked this way after 6 years all birth defects
would just disappear. What a wonderful world it would be. All I have
to
say is -- dream on, Saturn. I can't wait to get the car fixed and
trade
it in for another car.



Re: GM standard operating proceedure [ To: misterfact | Post
296013896, reply to 296013865 ] (Score: 2)



Cylinder head cracked, Saturn is aware there is a problem but their
position is, if it didn't happen in 6 years or 100,000 miles
(whichever came first) I'm out of luck.

(think I'm going to buy a Toyota pickup. I've always been a Dodge man,
and I'd love to have a new Cummins, but I think I'm done with American
auto companies.

I think I want a Toyota or a Nissan, club cab, full size. Something my
dogs can ride in with me.

..

misterfact
(nonconformist)



Saturn recalls

http://www.internetautoguide.com/auto-recalls/03-int/saturn/l-series/index.html

misterfact
(nonconformist)
01/18/08 09:54 AM
Re: GM standard operating proceedure [ To: Jhoffa_ | Post
296013960, reply to 296013929 ] (Score: 1)


Saturn has made over 100,000 cars with casting flaws in their cylinder
heads. The flaw causes the head to crack- usually after the warranty
expires.

This figure was given to me by a Saturn "insider".


http://www.carreview.com/mfr/saturn/midsize-compact/PRD_15473_1531crx.aspx

Summary:
We were very happy with our Saturn until the warranty ran out. As far
as I am concerned these lemons have built in flaws.With only 56000
miles and a dedicated maintanance regime we now face a $4000.00 repair
cost for replacing something on just about everything. Speed sensor,
transmission valve and a computer overhaul. We thought we had made a
good choice when we bought this car 6 years ago. My wife loved it. We
were treated great by all the staff at Saturn and it seemed to us that
we were getting a fine automobile......Then the warranty ran out and
so did all the friendlyness. We now face a bill almost 1/4 the size of
what we paid for it originaly. We are going to do the minimum to get
it running and dump this turkey. We have started looking around for a
minivan and believe me, it won't be a Saturn. They should be ashamed
of themselves for foisting an inferior product on trusting people.
(But I doubt they are.)


Weaknesses:
Constant problems with the air conditioning.I bet you've read that one
before. Things start falling apart after the warranty expires. too
many built in flaws in my opinion.



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misterfact
(maverick)
04/12/08 09:53 AM
Re: GM standard operating proceedure [ To: misterfact | Post
296172871, reply to 296013865 ] (Score: 1)


Dear Mister Fact;

 

Mister Fact -- Mister Misinformation would be more accurate.

 

more Mr. Fag.....

Please do not feed this troll.

I work for Saturn and not a word of this unreadable garbage is true as those
who own a Saturn already know.

Please do not feed this troll.

 

They sure keep you busy in the repair dept don't they?

 

Good advice!

Are you implying that you believe that Saturn engines have not had a "cracked head" problem? If so, I would suggest
you need to talk to your dealer's service department and/ or more customers. If you are implying that "MisterFact" is
grossly exaggerating and possibly lying outright about GM's handling of the problem, then I'm inclined to agree with
you.

 

Steve I'm sure that most here already know of the many issues the 1.9L
engine had, but it's not an epidemic, trust me. The 1.9 in question hasn't
been made in ...um over 6 years, so what is the point of Mr. Fag slamming
Saturn on this (and everything else) ? Nevermind, he is a troll and has no
life. Either Mr. Fag is a disgruntled customer or ex-employee and a retard
(no insult to the retarded) My point is Mr. Fag isn't welcome to troll here.
Don't feed the troll.

 

If anyone wants to know how twisted MisterAct is just research his post
archived in Google Groups. He gets his ass handed to him regularly but
he keeps posting the same discredited crap so repeatedly that it has
become "epidemic". The replies are pretty funny and must humiliate
Misteract to no end.

I think my next car will be a Saturn.
If I can find what I like made in the States that is.

 

He got 100,000 miles out of a GM product. If he wanted a longer lasting
vehicle he could have bought one. No one was holding a gun to his head
and forcing him to buy a Saturn. Many people buy a vehicle with the full
intention of keeping it for more than six years or 100K miles, but most
of these people are smart enough to do a little research prior to making
a purchase. Even before the casting flaw was discovered, Saturn's engine
reliability problems were legendary and well-documented. "Misterfact"
apparently did no pre-purchase research, and when this backfired on him
he went non-linear.

Marx404 is trying to sell Saturns, you can't blame him for wanting to
gloss over what happened in the past, and get upset when anyone brings
it up. The fact is that those early owners that couldn't get their
vehicles fixed under the recall (or whatever GM called it) are unlikely
to ever buy a Saturn or GM car again, and a few of them are upset enough
about their loss to complain about it forever. OTOH, those that were
covered and got their vehicles fixed are probably big fans of Saturn and
GM for "doing the right thing."

The current Saturn models bear no relation to the ones with the casting
flaws. However it's still instructive to look at the Alldata TSB lists
for competing models of vehicles of recent vintage as part of evaluating
which vehicles to buy (see "http://www.alldata.com/").

Also look at the JD Power Long Term Dependability studies. While a good
rating for three year dependability doesn't necessarily imply a good ten
year rating, a poor three year dependability rating probably does imply
a poor ten year rating. It's interesting that 2004 (for 2001 models) is
the last year that Saturn was ranked above the industry average in
dependability.

"http://www.autoblog.com/photos/j-d-power-2007-vehicle-dependability-study/346679/"
"http://www.autoblog.com/2006/08/09/j-d-power-dependability-results-are-out/"
"http://www.curbzone.com/pit/2543-j-d-power-releases-long-term-vehicle-dependability-study.html"
"http://www.prnewswire.com/mnr/jdpower/12513/"

Saturn has some nice vehicles now, but those looking for a vehicle to
keep for a long period of time would be advised to be wary.

 

What issues do the 1.9's have ???? I just bought a 95 SL1 with 146,000 and it runs good.
What can I look forward to in the future ???

Thanks
Brian

 

Oh boy its Steven M. Scharf! Everyone bow down to his trollness!

Steven M. Scharf's knowledge on cars is just one step above
Misteracts... IOW it also holds no value.

Wont do you a damn bit of good. Toyota hides or wont allow most of its
TSB's to be shown on Alldata. Most of GM's TSB's tell techs how to
reinstall molding or trim and other trivial things. From my research on
you its clear you're far from qualified to tell people anything about
cars. It seems you simply regurgitate things you hear with bias.

 

The main issue, as far as I am aware, is the casting flaw that caused oil and coolant to mix either in the oil
crankcase or the coolant system. If your SL has over 100,000 miles, chances are this flaw has either been caught and
corrected or (more likely) your engine did not suffer from this flaw. There are other, less serious, problems such as
wrong plug gapping and fuel pump but, again, your car has either had them and they've been fixed or your car never had
them. I would expect that as long as you ensure your SL gets regular maintenance (especially timing chain replacement),
the only problems you can expect are those endemic to all older cars.

 

Does the timing chain break ???? I would figure a chain would last the life of the car, unlike
belts.......

Brian

 

A timing CHAIN is made up of a few 100 metal links that rub and rotate against each other. They are designed to do this and oil is continuously applied. But over time they will wear gradually and play will develop. Modern (last 20 years) engines are designed to deal with a bit of this play but at some point they need to be replaced. If they break bad things can happen.

As to lasting the life of the car, when we drove cars 100K miles or less, well they usually did. (A 10 year old car with 100K miles in the 60s was usually a clunker worth little more than scrap.) I own cars with 210K, 135K, and 190K miles on them. "Life" has a new meaning than in days of old.

David Ross

 

Consumer Reports shows that Saturns generally range from a little
worse than average (Ion, Vue) to a lot worse than average (Relay,
Sky). GM managed to start a cult with Saturn, but no one is drinking
the Cool-Ade anymore.

 

It's not a scheduled maintenance item like a belt, but it doesn't last
forever. Chain breakage has been a problem for some owners due to
problems with the timing chain tensioner system. Clean oil is
essential for the timing chain tensioner on older Saturns to work
properly.

Generally you should replace the chain and the tensioner every 100,000
miles. If you have a 1995 with 146K miles then chances are the
previous owner already replaced the chain once.

 

Judging from this thread, at least a couple of people still are
drinking it. BTW, it's Kool-Aid. Still, I think that Misterfact should
direct his energy to more worthwhile projects. Trying to convince
people to not buy Saturns based on what happened with the casting flaw
so many years ago, is not going to be a very productive use of his
time.

I haven't seen any new Saturns around my area. The dealership near me
closed up shop several years ago, and I think people are reluctant to
buy vehicles when there is no dealer close by. The current Saturns are
probably no worse than other GM vehicles, but other than trucks, who's
buying anything from GM? The local GM (Chevy) dealer in my town closed
up unexpectedly one day, and eventually they sold the building and a
huge Whole Foods went in. In March 2008, Toyota sold 40,487 Camrys,
and Saturn sold 6,241 Auras, and that was a 12.9% increase for Saturn.

 

I'm not sure which is worse; "Misterfact" repeatedly posting about his
problem with his Saturn years after he experienced it, or a current
Saturn salesperson calling a former Saturn owner a fag and a retard.

At least Al Clapsaddle had some class.

 

>,
says...

Funny how the troll trio reappears after all this time...

Misterfact, a senile old man that is desperatly trying to make an impact
somewhere in life after clearly accomplishing nothing thus far. Spends
his time ranting like a dictator and trying to turn victim's into
offenders.

Satyr, an athiest that spends more time bashing religion than a preacher
could ever spend talking about God. How nice of him to grace us again
with his presents. Yeah those darn cults... I mean, how dare anyone
worship God or Saturn when they could be worshiping him. Now shutup you
peasants and drink the Satyr-Aid.

Steven Scharf, an arrogant fellow that thinks his own farts don't stink.
Spends his time complaining about inexpensive products not being on par
with higher priced products.

A clipping pulled from a webpage by Scharf, long gone now.
------------------------------------------
"About the Webmaster
Steve Scharf has been researching and writing about Saturn since 1995.
He is a frequent poster to the rec.autos.makers.saturn Usenet newsgroup
where he is one of the most knowledgeable and well-respected
contributors. His other interests include bicycling, cross-country
skiing, hiking, woodworking, electronics design, coffee, and travel. His
other web sites can be viewed at
www.geocities.com/scharf_steven"
------------------------------------------

In all the time I've been here no one ever respected Scharf and his
knowledge was always lifted from other peoples post and distorted in the
process, including mine.
..
..
..
lol internet trolls...

 

Unlike a belt, a chain very likely give you fair warning that it is
about to fail. Excessive noise and engine performance will appear. My
experience with chains is that a well lubricated chain will out last the
car. (Especially where roads are salted.) The people who generally have
problems didn't do proper oil changes. Yes the chains on S-series
engines do last more than 200k miles. Its been discussed here in the
past.

 

I dont believe 95' SOHC engines were effected by casting flaws. Only 3-4
years were effected. This is something that Misterhidethefacts wont ever
mention...