Hard to diagnose electrical (or electronic) problem.

A couple of weekends ago I took my 1999 SL2 in for regular service and
state inspection. Shortly after getting it back I started it up one
morning and noticed that the radio had lost the time and all of the
station presets. I reentered everything and the next couple of starts
all of the presets were still there. This happened a couple more times
intermittently with no apparent pattern. I had no difficulties
starting the car and no other apparent problems. Then one night I came
out from work and my remote would not unlock the door. I used the key
to open it instead. I got in the car and attempted to start it. This
set off the alarm since it hadn't been deactivated by the remote. At
this point I pressed the unlock button on the remote. This time it
worked and the door locks clicked and the alarm stopped. I was then
able to start the engine and drive away but the radio had once again
lost everything. This happened intermittently a couple of more times.
Each time I was able to start it by going through the same actions
(trigger the alarm then hit unlock) and each time the radio lost the
time and presets. I took it in to the dealer and explained what was
happening. They checked the battery and the alternator and couldn't
find anything wrong. The computer had not stored any error codes. They
said that they couldn't reproduce the problem and therefore couldn't
diagnose it and that I should contact them if it happened again. For
about a day and a half nothing happened and I was hoping that maybe
they had inadvertently fixed a loose connection or something. Then it
happened again this evening only it was worse. My remote wouldn't open
the door. I used the key and when I opened the door the dome light did
not go on. I was also not able to lock the doors using the lock button
on the driver's door. The headlights and horn worked and seemed to
have plenty of juice. When I tried to start it the dashboard lights
all came on but it didn't try to start and the alarm was not
triggered. Hitting the remote unlock button did not cause the
doorlocks to click and didn't enable me to start the engine. I tried
for several minutes to start it with no luck so I locked it and went
back inside. About half an hour later I went out to try again. I hit
the remote unlock button, the horn beeped 3 times and the door
unlocked. I opened the door and the dome light came on. I was able to
lock the doors, easily start the engine, and drive home. I obviously
can't go on like this but the service people aren't able to diagnose
the problem. Have any of you experienced anything similar and found
the cause?

 

You've got some good clues there, based on what does and doesn't
work when you're having a problem. (Be sure to make detailed notes
of this next time.) The various circuits are double-fused: There
are several master fuses and each master fuse has eight or so
smaller fuses (each a separate circuit) under it.

First thing to check is if everything failing is on the same master
fuse. (I think the circuits on each fuse may even be listed in the
owner's manual.) If it's a single fuse then the first thing to do
is to replace the fuse. If the fuse doesn't seem to fit tightly
then someone will need to disassemble the fuse box (pull all the
fuses and remove some screws) and tighten the little widgets that
hold each fuse in place. (I've tried buying new little widgets but
can't convince Saturn to sell them to me.)

If it doesn't all trace down to a fuse then a ground is suspect.
First off, both battery cables should be removed AT BOTH ENDS, the
connections cleaned, and reinstalled. The ground strap between
engine and body should similarly be removed, connections cleaned,
and reinstalled.

There are also some ground straps in the instrument panel that might
be at fault. The circuits that go out might give a clue here as well.

 

First thing to check is if everything failing is on the same master

What makes me think that its not a fuse is its intermittency. If a fuse went,
it should just simply have an open circuit and that would be it until the fuse
was replaced.

 

I agree with this but I might try jiggling the fuses the next time
this happens. I'll also look in the manual and see if the various
failures all lead to the same fuse. I should mention that the 3 short
horn beeps that occurred when I unlocked it is not normal behaviour.
The normal behaviour is simply to unlock. I'm thinking that the beeps
may be some kind of error code from the computer, maybe indicating
that it rebooted or something. So the computer may be losing power or
there may be some kind of electronic failure.

 

You can have a bad contact with the fuse, especially if the "little
widget" is sprung and not gripping tightly.

 

But an electronic failure wouldn't cause the radio to lose it's
presets -- the radio should be wired directly to an "always hot"
circuit.

 

You could have a failing alternator. You should get yourself a multimeter
( They are very inexpensive at an automotive store) and when you are having
the problem measure the voltage across the battery and it should be 13Volts
or more if it is less then that then the rectifier-regulator could be
failing inside the alternator. A common failure in Saturns.
Alex

 

You can have a bad contact with the fuse, especially if the "little

That could happen........in that case you would have to pull the fuses though
instead of just checking for a blown one.

Best bet would be to see if all problem circuits are on the same maxi
fuse.......

 

A failing alternator wouldn't cause the problems described. With
the engine not running you'd either have a dead battery or not, and
it wouldn't just "come to life" as the OP describes.

 

Yep. But if the fuse contacts are the problem then just "futzing
with" the fuse will probably clear up the problem temporarily.

 

Makes sense. Maybe the radio and the computer are both losing power.

 

My two cents:

Sounds to me like the battery voltage fell below the computer and radio's
minimum threshold to retain their volatile memory so they got reset. This
could be caused by a bad battery (how old is it? If original, it's 5 years
old... and should be replaced) or a charging system/electrical problem (bad
alternator/voltage regulator?)

With all of the electronics and computers used these days, you can get some
strange behavior when the battery isn't putting out the nominal (13.8V)
voltage. If it falls below 12V, you can see some funny things happen.

Good luck.

Bob

 

That's correct. Even when it wouldn't start, the horn and headlights
had plenty of power. Half an hour later, everything was working fine
and it started with no difficulty.
I'm taking it back to the dealer today. It's started happening
frequently enough that they should be able to reproduce the problem.
Hopefully they can then figure out what's wrong.

 

Yeah, usually when a battery goes bad it stays bad, so you won't
have it fail to work and then work 10 minutes later. But
occasionally you get a bad inter-cell connection or some such in the
battery and it acts just like a bad ground or bad battery terminal
connection -- bad one minute and then seemingly fine 10 minutes later.

However, I believe the radio and computer are probably designed to
hold their memory down to 10V or so. They have to in order to
handle the worst-case scenario of starting in cold weather.

 

Well, they had it for several days and told me that they hadn't been
able to exactly reproduce the problem but that weird things did happen
when they wiggled the battery connections. They tightened the
connections and gave me the car back. The first thing I noticed was
that the radio still had all of my presets. That made me skeptical
since EVERY time it acted weird for me it lost all of the presets. It
started acting weird again after a day. Two times it wouldn't start
for me, the locks didn't work, the dome light didn't work, and the
remote didn't work. Both times I wiggled all of the passenger
compartment fuses and everything started working (It's possible that
this was coincidental to playing with the fuses). Saturday evening the
remote wouldn't unlock the doors. Wiggling the fuses didn't fix this.
When I tried to start it, it cranked without starting for several
tries, then for several more tries it started ran (very roughly) for a
few seconds, then stopped. Then finally it started and continued
running. I've only tried it a couple of times since then and it starts
and runs but the remote no longer functions at all. I'm calling the
dealer Monday morning. I don't recall if I've ever replaced the car's
battery so I will ask them about that.

 

Well I don't have any problems now, but in Colonie NY (Saturn of
Albany) there has never been an occasion that when we brought the 99
SL1 in for a problem that the service department stated they could
find nothing wrong. It seems to be they just want to sell the vehicles
to you but not really service them.

On the other hand a friend of mine is a service manager at another
place and he finds the problems and fixes them. And he had to go out
and purchase tools to just analyze the car since they normally don't
see many Saturn's. It is a shame that service has degraded to this
level.

But they want you to have oil changes and inspections done at their
dealerships. Why bother when they cannot fix the product they sell.

Elector

 

I thought that I should post a follow up to this in case anyone is
following it or has similar problems. They replaced the fuse box and
all of the problems vanished. It's worked perfectly ever since. The
only issue is that the remotes no longer work at all. This is probably
because the electrical problems caused the computer to get out of sync
with the remotes. I'm taking it in this Saturday to have them
reprogrammed. Once that's fixed it should be 100%. Everything was
covered by my extended warranty so, other than the repeated
inconvenience, I'm not too unhappy about the incident.