Gas prices forcing me to look for better MPG, questions on saturns

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by mgoodman1, Apr 29, 2006.

  1. mgoodman1

    mgoodman1 Guest

    My wife does a lot of driving around, given the high gas prices, I'm
    looking to buy something easier on gas than my suburban or Blazer. 2
    years ago I thought about saturns, looked at auto trader and saw that
    once the cars get about 60k miles, their values drop considerably.
    Did a search tonight on saturns and they are still cheaper to buy than
    other small cars (same years / mileage etc). Any thoughts as to why?
    Any years / models / motors / transmissions I should avoid?

    Thanks

    PS - I am a chevy man, and would like to stick with chevy's.
    97 Suburban
    94 S-10 Blazer
    74 Chevy Truck
     
    mgoodman1, Apr 29, 2006
    #1
  2. $500 bucks and up timing belt servicing begins for most. 80k mile tires
    near end of life. People dont want to put money into a car that they
    just bought.
    Pre OBDII / L-series / SOHC,3.0,&3.5 / CVT Trans are to be avoided.
    Nothing wrong with Pre OBD II cars, just old tech.
    Not sure which Saturn you are looking for. As long as you are not
    towing, a far better alternative to that Blazer is a 4cyl Vue. Avoid all
    CVT transmissions, they are as bad as owning a car with a timing belt...
    The Ecotec is used in almost all GM makes including Chevy. The Ecotec is
    to 4 cylinders as what the SBC was to V8's. Very dependable and if need
    be cheap & easy to work on. As for the S-series the 1.9L Twincams and
    TAAT transmissions have their quirks now and then but they are easily
    remedied. Forums like Saturnfans.com will give you the most reliable
    information without the distortions and misfacts of irrational trolls
    which there has been a rash of here lately.
     
    Blä Blä ¹ººº, Apr 29, 2006
    #2
  3. mgoodman1

    SnoMan Guest


    Some of the older Saturns (pre 2000) were pretty sturdy as GM was
    still trying to make a name for them but recently they seem to be
    cutting a few corners. I have a old 1500 89 4x4 burb that I have had
    since new and I get a honest 18 to 19 MPG out of it on trip (that is
    all we use it for these days) and this is accurate because it has a 40
    gallon tank and I run more than 400 mile before a refill it and
    sometime up to 600 miles and still have some reserve. (I never use 87
    in it though as it runs much better on better gas) What ever vehicle
    you choose, the bigger the crossection and the more it weighs the
    greater the potentail for lower MPG. Tires size and type plays a big
    roll too as you want stock type tires running at or near max pressure.
    THe new blazers with the I6 in them seem to not do to bad on fuel and
    they run well too. Stay away for v8 powered SUV if you are really
    looking to gain a few MPG regardless of what EPA sticker says for MPG
    (they use hand build and tuned cars with 93 octane and every cheat in
    the book to get some of those ratings)
     
    SnoMan, Apr 29, 2006
    #3
  4. mgoodman1

    p_vouers Guest

    Some of the older Saturns (pre 2000) were pretty sturdy as GM was
    I have a 97 sl2 and my son has a 96sl2 mine is manual and his is auto.
    both cars have over 125k miles and both run like champs..
    both cars get about 25-27mpg in the city and 37-42 on the highway.
     
    p_vouers, Apr 29, 2006
    #4
  5. mgoodman1

    SnoMan Guest


    My daughter has a 97 SC2 with 118K on it and she is getting about 28
    to 30 MPG with it in urban driving right now. It runs well. The mid to
    late 90's saturn were about when they reached their peak in quality as
    they even used a expensive aytomatic with a spin on filter until 2000
    when they replaced it with a cheaper design. GM put a lot of effort in
    making a name for the car in 90's and now they seem to have lost a
    good bit of that effort and drive on the newest models to the tune of
    cutting costs.
     
    SnoMan, Apr 29, 2006
    #5
  6. mgoodman1

    navaidstech Guest

    My 92 SL1 will be hitting 473,000 km (295,000 mi) today on the way
    home. Most of my work commute is highway and I like to mix it up with
    some country side driving on the way home. I regularly get between
    37-42 mpg throughout the year.
    The engine runs great, no problems with it (of course now that I said
    that it will blow up on the way home today). :)

    Alex
     
    navaidstech, May 1, 2006
    #6
  7. mgoodman1

    Private Guest

    Congratulations, and 'nicely done'. You are obviously operating in an
    efficient manner. Can we have a little more information?
    Have you needed to open up the engine?
    Timing chain?
    Oil consumption, type and change interval?
    Clutch? (fuel economy makes me assume manual trans)
    Front suspension, steering and half driveshafts/CV joints?
    Radiator, waterpump, belt tensioner, heater core, coolant changes?
    Alternator?
    Cruise rpm? and normal operating range and normal shift points?
    Drivers door hinges? seat? air leaks & wind noise?

    regards
     
    Private, May 1, 2006
    #7
  8. mgoodman1

    navaidstech Guest

    Thank you!!
    I'm very happy with my vehicle and I'll try to keep it going until it
    falls apart or dies altogether.

    To answer your questions:
    1. Never opened up the engine. Well....I opened the valve cover a few
    months back to change oil seals on the valves, and refurbish the
    lifters. Original chain.
    2. Oil consumption...at last change it I drained 3.5 quarts out of 4. I
    use Castrol Syntec 5-50 and change it every 6,000 miles (about 4
    months). Did not add any oil in between changes.
    3. Clutch? Yes.... original too.
    4. Front suspension: last year changed the control arms as the
    balljoints were gone. I changed the tie rod ends a couple of times. I'm
    looking to change the inner tie rod this weeked on the passenger side
    as it is gone. I repacked the CV joint on the driver side last year
    (found the boot torn). All halfshafts, bearings, knuckles, calipers,
    are original.
    5. Radiator - original. Clean as a whistle. Changed the water pump a
    couple of years back. Belt tensioner is original. Heater core -
    original, two coolant changes so far. (oops! yeah, I know). Alternator
    has been changed a couple of years back after 415,000 km (260,000
    miles)
    6. Cruise RPM - I tend to keep it under 2500 rpm. I'm in no rush to get
    to work so I take it easy. Normal shift points, I can't tell you what
    speed or rpm but I would guess around 2500-3000 rpm. Never use engine
    brakes.
    7. Driver door hinges are all good. I swapped out the seats with the
    passenger side. Couple of years back a metal brace inside the seat
    broke off and I had it welded. Once welded, I put it on the passenger
    side. I get a bit of wind noise coming from the rear.

    Things that I found bad with the car:

    1. Rust on the bottom of the passenger door opening. It's pretty bad,
    noticed it too late.
    2. Rust at the bottom on the widow sill (vertical part) on both rear
    passenger doors.
    3. Alternator is a pain to get at.
    4. There is still some rain water trapped in the trunk lid a while
    after the rain. You open the trunk and guess where all the water ends
    up?
    5. The driver and passenger side door trim on the inside. The clips
    have broken off and the darn thing rattles when I'm stopped at the
    lights.
    6. Headliner fabric has separated (probably common to all cars this
    age)
    7. Lost the air dam a while ago. Springs must have rusted and let go.
    Got a new one since.
    8. I have disconnected the seatbelt motor and do up the belt manually.
    The grease in there seizes up the traveller in the winter. Tried
    regreasing and it was never same since. So I pulled out the fuse.
    9. All doors take considerable more force to close and latch properly.
    On top of it they make a weird clunking noise when they engage. I'm not
    saying that I have to slam the doors but it takes a bit more force
    than, say, my wife's Vibe. The doors have been this way since new.

    These are things off the top of my head. I don't keep a list, so it is
    moreless complete.

    Generally I'm happy with the car. It hasn't given me any serious
    trouble. As mentioned before, I get good mileage out of it and at last
    check I got about 43 mpg (51 miles per Canadian gallon). My daily drive
    consists of 75% higway, 25% countryside roads. I put 77 miles per day
    on the car and fill it up every 5-6 days.

    If anyone has any pointers or suggestions on the issues I mentioned, I
    would be more than happy to hear you out.

    Alex
     
    navaidstech, May 1, 2006
    #8
  9. mgoodman1

    Private Guest

    Why did you do the valve seals? I only ask because you say next that you do
    not add oil between changes. What do you mean "refurbish" the lifters?
    Were they making noise? Did you use air or ??? to hold the valves so you
    could change the seals?
    So much for those who claim all Saturns burn oil after 200k km. Have you
    always used this synthetic oil? and this change interval?
    Nicely done, you must have good starting and shifting technique.
    Catching the torn boot problem shows good inspection habits.
    My guess is that not making 'spirited' downshifts to maximize engine braking
    has contributed to your long clutch life. I would also suggest that your
    low rpm operation has contributed to your good engine service wear and low
    oil consumption.
    I would suggest you try to find and fix this problem since it is probably
    causing corrosion in your trunk. Could you have a blocked drain?
    Suggest you replace the clips or use 'shoe goo' or other urethane glue. It
    is amazing stuff.
    I have had a hard time keeping this dam in place but have not noticed any
    overheating problems operating without it. It will help control gravel
    damage. I am guessing that you are also in Canada so maybe this dam is only
    required for cooling in a hotter climates but I have not had any overheating
    even on the hottest of Canadian summer. I did fasten a piece of heavy mesh
    screen in front of my rad which does help to protect the rad. I have
    noticed a lot of gravel chiping on the front of my oil pan which I am afraid
    may allow pan corrosion which others here have reported. I have used heavy
    oil concrete foundation waterproofing coating to patch damage to the
    undercoating under the car. It seems to be doing the job and I will be
    puting some on the front of my oil pan to protect and prevent corrosion. I
    do not know if this may help your corrosion areas, I did not purchase this
    foundation coating specially for the car, I was just doing some concrete
    work and it seemed like a good thing to do with the surplus.
    I have one set of hinges on the drivers door which I have often tried but
    been unable to lube properly. They creak and groan and increase the
    operating effort. I have purchased new hinges (~$50/pr) but have not
    installed them yet. I did once have a car where stiff hinges caused a
    flexing of the door frame that resulted in cracks.that did require repair
    and reinforcing.
    This is very similar to our operation. We have '96 SW1 and have aveaged 42
    mi/impgal (6.8 lt/100km) since new, total combined city/highway all season.
    On the highway my wife gets 49 mi/impgal (5.9 lt/100km) but I never seem to
    do that well (I do have a heavier foot). I do notice that if I leave the
    roof rack in place it uses about 1 lt/100km more fuel.
    You do not mention any exhaust work, if you are still on the original
    exhaust it is a good example of the better materials used in current factory
    auto exhaust. We have had failures of the muffler mounting strap due to
    corrosion on both of our cars. The rest of the system seems to be quite
    corrosion resistant.

    You have had very good service from your car, I hope we can do as well. I
    am guessing you also get good service life from your brakes and tires.
    These cars are now getting old enough that they will be showing up in the
    discount 'pick your part' auto wreckers so we may be able to keep them
    economically serviceable for some time. I am also a believer in buying new
    and using carefully until full service life is over. These cars are now
    showing up in the very cheap used market and will soon be such good value
    (cheap) that it will be worth buying a good one just to use for parts. We
    have SW bodies which are very usable but use the most of the same parts as
    the sedans. My observation has always been that nothing you have a spare
    part for ever breaks!

    I note your handle, are the navaids you tech aviation or
    automotive/trucking/marine GPS systems?

    Good luck, YMMV
     
    Private, May 2, 2006
    #9
  10. mgoodman1

    navaidstech Guest

    I replaced the seals on spec. I noticed the spark plugs were getting
    gummed with burned oil causing the engine to operate intermittently at
    times.
    When I say "refurbish", I mean take the lifters out, dunk them in a
    degreaser solution overnight, take them apart and free up the little
    pistons inside them. I found 7 out of 8 lifters seized.
    I tried air but didn't have much luck with that so I opted to use a
    string. I would bring the piston down, pack the cylinder with string,
    then bring the piston up to push the string against the valves. Worked
    like a charm.



    :) Actually, before the valve seals, I drained 2.75 quarts. After the
    seal job, I drained 3.5.
    I've been using synthetic since the car was 110,000 km old and always
    do it every 10,000 km. I found that Costco has the best price for 5-50
    Syntec.

    Yeah. I avoid jackrabbit starts and try to shift as smoothly as
    possible. Sometimes you can't even tell when I shift, I have it down to
    an art now. hi hi.
    BTW, I checked the RPM gauge on the way from work today and it seems
    that I shift around 2300 for the first 3 gears and then about 2100-2200
    for the last two.
    Well, to this day I'm not sure if it was torn or was it something I did
    to it while working in the area. Oh well, it was a good exercise
    nonetheless. :)
    That's exactly what I'm thinking as well. It's a habit I have developed
    over the years and it seems to be paying off.

    This has been happening since the car was new. The water collects
    somewhere in the trunk lid and when you pop the trunk open it gushes
    into the trunk.
    Yeah...the clips are fine, it's just that the plastic thingies broke
    right off and are now stuck in the mouting holes. I'll try this super
    duper glue I got from my Dad. It works wonders.
    My car was overheating last couple of summers. Even in +9C weather the
    needle would swing past the middle, something that has never happened
    before. I kinda suspected the air dam but was convinced that my rad was
    plugged. I cleaned it with a weak CLR solution (yes, I know don't say
    it). Basically I circulated this solution through the rad for 30
    minutes or so. Then I checked the capacity, it seemed OK (I think 1.6
    litres), but the car would STILL overheat.
    Interestingly, the car would never attain its operating temperature in
    the winter. The needle would stay well below the centre. I think this
    was caused by the air rushing past the oil pan and cooling the oil down
    enough to cool the engine once pumped back up again.
    Soon as I installed the air dam....everything was normal once again.

    Yes, I'm in Mississauga. Just west of Toronto.
    Oh yeah. I need to replace mine. I did that a few years back.
    That's very interesting. I'll take your idea to heart and most likely
    end up doing the same. It's been a while since I checked down there but
    the pan sure needs some protection.
    Funny thing is that the motorized belts were one of the selling points
    when I bought the car eons ago. That and the price. Over the years,
    I've grown sick of the belts, especially when they were so sluggish it
    would take them forever to retract.
    Yes, that all makes sense. Your wife sure does pretty good with
    5.9lt/100 for sure. I'm yet to find an optimum speed where the fuel
    consumption is the best.
    Sorry about that. I'm on my fourth muffler now. The original one lasted
    6 or 7 years. Susequent mufflers failed as you have suggested, right
    where the straps are.
    The last muffler I put on this car is a cheapo one. I coated it with a
    few coats of heat resistant paint from Canadian Tire to extend its life
    - so far so good. Fingers crossed.
    But you are right, the rest of the system is original. I even went to
    get it replaced but the mechanic told me to save my bucks and don't
    bother.
    I should also mention the cat is original as well and it passes the
    emission tests every two years.
    Hmmm... I'm probably on my fourth or fifth set of pads, third set of
    rotors and fourth set of tires, second set of shoes (replaced last
    year) but the drums are still original and STILL within spec on
    diameter.
    Oh yes! I visit my local junkyard on a regular basis! :)
    You are absolutely correct. I never have any trouble finding parts for
    this car, either aftermarket or at a junk yard. I keep a few parts that
    I collect during my junkyard trips at hand just in case....you never
    know. :)
    I agree with you on buying one just for spares. My Dad actually picked
    up a 95 SL1 from a junkyard for $700. It would have been a perfect
    spares car for me, but he fixed it up and now he drives it. Not sure
    how much longer though, it burns oil like there is no tomorrow (yes, we
    changed oil seals on the valves).
    If he decides to get rid of it, I already have a list of things to take
    off it for my car. :)
    Yes, I'm a navaids tech working for Nav Canada at the Hamilton Airport.
    That's my daily commute Mississauga-Hamilton-MIssissauga = 125 clicks!
    :)

    Whereabouts are you located? I don't even know your name.... :(

    Alex
     
    navaidstech, May 2, 2006
    #10
  11. mgoodman1

    Private Guest

    Good diagnosis on cause of oil consumption and plug fouling. I bet the
    valve train really quieted down after cleaning the lifters (? i guess they
    are called lifters even if they actually don't). It is interesting that the
    lifters would gum up with synthetic oil. Your extended drain intervals may
    be a contributor but this would not cause valve seal wear, and cleaning the
    lifters is just good practice when the cam is removed.
    Good technique.
    Oil consumption of 1.25 quarts in 10k km is still very low IMHO, but the
    improvement after the valve seal job shows you have a good lower end and
    your rings and pistons must be very clean.
    I hesitate to offer advice to anyone who is having as much success as you
    are, but FWIW my (.02) thoughts are at
    http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.a...nsubject:shift?&rnum=1&hl=en#ddfe4c5d9a6c9152
    I had to do this job the day after I had it at the alignment shop and
    replaced lower arms w/ ball joints. The boot was damaged by a crowbar. I
    had to tear it apart again and fix the boot but the shop did stand behind it
    and gave me a refund for parts and labour.

    snip
    Aluminum compatible glycol is high in silicates which can cause problems
    with water pump seals and deposits of silica gel in the rads. My favorite
    heavy diesel shops recommend using Calgon water softener as a cooling system
    cleaner after draining but before flushing. I am now using a long life high
    quality diesel coolant and it seems to work well. It is a glycol compatible
    but I still did a thorough flush before installing. It is a five year low
    silicate type fluid. I do use distilled water only for final flush and
    coolant mixing, it is cheap and avoids using my local water which is very
    hard.

    snip
    Economy vs time is always a compromise, I think slower is always cheaper
    but things start to get more expensive above 2400 rpm. My wife spends more
    time in the sweet spot which I think is between 22-2400rpm. I am more often
    at 24-2800+ rpm.
    We are still on our original mufflers but they are tied in place with heavy
    wire. I do have a new clamp but the wire seems to last longer than the
    clamps.
    My pads seem to outlast the rotors. The original rotors were the worst and
    suffered severe corrosion and pitting on the inner faces. We are getting
    good service now using top quality pads and cheap offshore rotors. I do not
    believe in turning rotors as the machining cost is only a little cheaper
    than new offshore rotors which will always be much thicker than used refaced
    and do not warp as easily.

    We purchased a second set of rims so we can save our newest tires for winter
    and wear out our poorest in the summer. It is really handy to have lots of
    mounted tires.
    It seems like there comes a time using an older car when you need new tires
    and battery and can buy a fair running car with good tires and battery for
    about what new ones cost and you get the rest of the car for free. Having a
    second running car as a spare eases the pain when your primary driver needs
    repair and you can just change over the plates and insurance and take your
    time to do a good cheap repair with no time pressure.
    CYBW

    Good luck, YMMV
     
    Private, May 2, 2006
    #11
  12. mgoodman1

    SnoMan Guest


    The problem with these extended drains is that will they oil may not
    break down, it will get dirty and loose its cleaning abilty and it a
    mileage engine, there is more blowby that get oil dirty sooner than in
    a new tight engine. I venture to say that if the oil change intervale
    had been shorter, the lifters would never of gummed up. As a engine
    gets to high mileage, I increase the frequecy of its oil changes
    because this can help extend life even more.
     
    SnoMan, May 2, 2006
    #12
  13. mgoodman1

    navaidstech Guest

    I hate to admit it but I developed a bad habit of not regularly
    checking the dipstick. However, that has changed lately and I watch it
    like a hawk :).
    As far as the cylinders, at last check I measured 185 psi in each so
    that's not too bad either.
    Well, my car could be the living proof of that. The engine very rarely
    gets to above 2500 RPM and it has lasted me 15 years trouble free. Even
    my friend, who owns a garage in town, is baffled.
    I will take this to heart on next coolant change. I replaced mine a
    couple of years back but it might be a good idea to do a flush before
    summer this year. Last year was blazing hell here in Toronto as far as
    temps, you never know what this summer might bring.
    One of the hoses has developed a small leak so it might be a good idea
    to do a complete cooling system drain/flush once the new one is
    installed.
    Yes.. a few years back I took the car to Ottawa and drove at 2700+ most
    of the way. You can really see the difference.
    However, during regular commuter to/from work, I keep it in the sweet
    spot as per your numbers above. I'm in no rush to get to work on time
    so I take it easy, this converts to great savings on gas, etc.
    Not a bad idea. There seems to be a lot of moisture trapped under those
    clamps and that's usually where the corrosion occurs first. I will
    consider this next time I change the muffler. Besides, those clamps can
    be a pain in the rear to put on, especially the aftermarket ones.
    I've been having bad luck with rotors. I had mine turned last year in
    October and already I'm noticing a small wobble. It's not as bad as it
    was in the past but it's still there. I need to determine which wheel
    wobbles on me and try to find the root cause of the problem. Calipers
    appear to be good so I'm a little baffled now.
    I don't use OEM rotors, just the cheap aftermarket ones. That might be
    it... ???
    For sure. Case and point is my Dad's Saturn as I mentioned before. He
    paid $700 for his. The doors on his are in better condition than mine
    and my local junkyard is asking $150 for single door, that's $600 for a
    set of four. So which way do I go? Buy a junker with good set of doors
    or just the doors? Go figure.
    If I had the space, I sure would keep another one here just in case.
    Go Flames!!!!

    :)

    Take care.
     
    navaidstech, May 3, 2006
    #13
  14. mgoodman1

    Private Guest

    I agree with SnoMan, but it is hard to argue with success. Navaidstech's
    ~300k mi engine is using VERY little oil which would lead me to believe
    there is not much blowby. I am personally inclined to not use synthetic oil
    because I like the strategy of frequent changes and the higher price of
    synthetic makes this very costly. If petroil becomes more expensive we may
    see more use of superfine bypass filters to allow more extended change
    intervals. I do not know how much oil circulation there is in the S1
    lifters and it may well be very little.

    I also agree that the change interval should be shortened as an engine ages
    and would suggest that oil consumption rate is a fair way to determine this.
    My favored strategy is to add oil as required and use the oil for 3500 mi or
    until it is down a quart which ever comes first. Now that my engine is
    getting older (160k mi) and is starting to use a little oil (1500 mi/qt), I
    will be reducing my change interval to 3000 mi. I have noticed that the
    consumption rate increases as petroil ages and breaks down but I do not know
    if this is also true about synthetic. I have also noticed that not all
    brands of petroil seem to give the same consumption rates. I did try
    Wal-Mart Tech2000 for one change but noticed a large increase in consumption
    rate, I have also noticed that the rate is higher with Castrol which
    surprised me since I have always thought it was good quality oil. I buy
    whatever name branded oil I find on sale. I am not concerned about a
    reasonable oil consumption rate as long as the oil is changed frequently.

    Just my .02, YMMV
     
    Private, May 4, 2006
    #14
  15. mgoodman1

    Private Guest

    Once you have the system drained to change a hose it is a good time to do a
    Calgon (dishwasher detergent) clean and flush then instal new coolant. I
    would do the cleaning before I changed the hose and the final flush after.
    Long life coolant is not much more money depending on where you buy it. I
    buy both my coolant and Delco batteries from an industrial and trucking
    supply wholesaler which has very good price on both batteries and heavy duty
    coolant. I use only distilled water which I buy from a health food store
    for 50 cents / gal. My wife also uses it in her cloths iron.

    snip
    When my strap failed I tied the muffler up with heavy wire just until I
    could get a new strap/hanger. I picked up a new hanger several years ago
    but the wire is still working well. I have been feeling guilty, but like
    your reasonong, I think I will use it :)
    I had better sevice from the cheap rotors than the factory ones. I do not
    think turning rotors is a good practice as it leaves the rotors too thin and
    this contributes to warping.
    Stuff vs. space, it really is nice to have both, but it seems we never have
    enough of either.

    Good luck, YMMV
     
    Private, May 4, 2006
    #15
  16. mgoodman1

    SnoMan Guest


    Year ago I new a guy that had a 283 in a truck that was using about a
    quart of oil every 300 miles. He pulled the heads and did a valve job
    and it reduced it to about a quart every 600 or 700 miles and he drove
    it 70,000 miles that way. He just change the oil every 2K miles and at
    the end of the 70K it was using about a quart ever 300-400 miles
    again. He kept it alive with frequent oil changes.
     
    SnoMan, May 4, 2006
    #16
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