French-Made Valeo Starter --- Piece of Junk

[jls]

Did you buy a Saturn because you didn't want to get left standing or
walking? Did you think you were going to get a 100k miles out of it before
it started to fall apart? Have you now been disabused of the notion that
Saturn makes a car to compete in dependability with Hondas, Nissans, and
Toyotas? Heheheh.

I have a crappy Valeo D6RA starter in front of me. If you want to see it
cussed, just google it. It's made by eurofaggots in France. It failed at
99k miles and mostly highway travel. Actually only the solenoid is bad,
but you can't buy the solenoid. You have to buy the starter too @ $200.

Anybody know where I can find a kit just to replace the solenoid?

And, btw, the alternator went at 60k miles, the AC at 70K, and the cooling
sytem imploded at 90k. I haven't replaced the fuel pump yet but plan to
and am crossing my fingers. Otherwise, I'm not all that unhappy with the
car. The dohc engine is zippy, uses a quart of oil every 500 miles (which
ain't all that unreasonable), gets me 38 mpg, and has a great radio and tape
deck.

Just a little piXXed about the starter. Besides it was hell to get it out.
You have to slide underneath and you WILL bust your knuckles.

 

[C. E. White]

I have a crappy Valeo D6RA starter in front of me. If you want to see it
cussed, just google it. It's made by eurofaggots in France. It failed at
99k miles and mostly highway travel. Actually only the solenoid is bad,
but you can't buy the solenoid. You have to buy the starter too @ $200.

Just be glad it isn't a Toyota starter. I had the solenoid
fail on the last Toyota I owned. Not only couldn't you buy
just the solenoid, the #$@*& Toyota starter was over
$500!!!!

Fortunately for me, I visited a local automotive electrical
rebuilder. The only thing actually wrong with my wonderful
awesome really great Toyota starter was the copper contact
"bolt" in one end of the solenoid. I took just the "bolt" to
the rebuilder. The only thing I did was show him the part
and he immediately identified the vehicle. I made some
comment to the effect that the part must fail a lot for him
to recognize the part. He laughed and said those s&^t Toyota
starters don't usually last long enough for that part to
fail. You want to hear about the alternator from the same
wonderful amazingly unbelievably perfect Toyota? It was
total CRAP. Every August I could count on a call from my ex
telling me that the car had stopped and all the warning
lights were on. Every damn time it was alternator. And once
again, Toyota did not sell repair parts except for a
complete $500+ alternator. Fortunately the internal
regulator (the part that kept failing) was available after
market. The reason the regulator kept failing was that those
infallible Toyota engineers had located the alternator next
to the exhaust manifold, in an area with virtually no air
flow - particularly when the car was driven by a woman who
never drove on the highway. Then there was the marvelous
Toyota AC and the unbelievably wonderful plastic that turned
a beautiful shade of white, and the incredible fuel pump
relays that improved vehicle safety by immobilizing the
vehicle, and should I mention the awesome automatic
transmission that let you know it was shifting by rattling
your teeth? Or maybe I should mention the cost of a front
fender?

If you think I hate Toyotas, you got that right. Thanks for
the opportunity to vent.

Anyhow, back to your original problem - look for an
automotive electrical rebuilder in your area. chances are he
can get a solenoid.

Ed

 

[jls]

$200.

Just be glad it isn't a Toyota starter. I had the solenoid
fail on the last Toyota I owned. Not only couldn't you buy
just the solenoid, the #$@*& Toyota starter was over
$500!!!!

Fortunately for me, I visited a local automotive electrical
rebuilder. The only thing actually wrong with my wonderful
awesome really great Toyota starter was the copper contact
"bolt" in one end of the solenoid. I took just the "bolt" to
the rebuilder. The only thing I did was show him the part
and he immediately identified the vehicle. I made some
comment to the effect that the part must fail a lot for him
to recognize the part. He laughed and said those s&^t Toyota
starters don't usually last long enough for that part to
fail. You want to hear about the alternator from the same
wonderful amazingly unbelievably perfect Toyota? It was
total CRAP. Every August I could count on a call from my ex
telling me that the car had stopped and all the warning
lights were on. Every damn time it was alternator. And once
again, Toyota did not sell repair parts except for a
complete $500+ alternator. Fortunately the internal
regulator (the part that kept failing) was available after
market. The reason the regulator kept failing was that those
infallible Toyota engineers had located the alternator next
to the exhaust manifold, in an area with virtually no air
flow - particularly when the car was driven by a woman who
never drove on the highway. Then there was the marvelous
Toyota AC and the unbelievably wonderful plastic that turned
a beautiful shade of white, and the incredible fuel pump
relays that improved vehicle safety by immobilizing the
vehicle, and should I mention the awesome automatic
transmission that let you know it was shifting by rattling
your teeth? Or maybe I should mention the cost of a front
fender?

If you think I hate Toyotas, you got that right. Thanks for
the opportunity to vent.

Anyhow, back to your original problem - look for an
automotive electrical rebuilder in your area. chances are he
can get a solenoid.

Ed

Ed, I got a great kick out of your post and will avoid Toyotas, then. So
much for my ability to diagnose the problem with the Valeo starter. I took
the damX thing to a rebuilder, who immediately found the armature sheared.
I looked at the casting and it looked like pure crap.

On Ebay a Connecticut dealer sells these plagued things for $30 apiece but I
have yet to receive an e-mail in return for mine to him offering to send a
money order instead of dealing through the dreaded paypal.

If you see somebody pushing off a Saturn in the hilly WNC area, that would
probably be ... I've been doing it now for a week and have it down to a
science.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Charles Paluda]

I have a crappy Valeo D6RA starter in front of me. If you want to see it
cussed, just google it. It's made by eurofaggots in France. It failed at
99k miles and mostly highway travel. Actually only the solenoid is bad,
but you can't buy the solenoid. You have to buy the starter too @ $200.

Friend just had the same thing happen to their Nissan Altima, not sure the
year but it's the previous body style. Anyway, same deal $200+ cause you
can't get the solenoid separate.

Charles

 

[Philip Nasadowski]

Just be glad it isn't a Toyota starter. I had the solenoid
fail on the last Toyota I owned. Not only couldn't you buy
just the solenoid, the #$@*& Toyota starter was over
$500!!!!

Toyota starters are notorious for popping.

You want to hear about the alternator from the same
wonderful amazingly unbelievably perfect Toyota? It was
total CRAP.

On some hondas, because they assumed the alternatoir would be perfect
forever, you have to pull the driveshaft/CV joint on that side to change
it. The Saturn alternator's a breeze in comparison.

and should I mention the awesome automatic
transmission that let you know it was shifting by rattling
your teeth?

I'm convinced the Japanese do not know how to build automatics. I've
yet to drive a Japanese car with a well behaved one. My friend had his
Toyota tranny lock up solid on him, without warning...

Or maybe I should mention the cost of a front fender?

It's a Japanese car. Parts are $$$$$

Reminds me of the time a friend tried to ressurect his old Honda
motorcycle. New voltage regulator? $350. Carb rebuild kit? Don't
ask. Get the shims to do the valve adjustments? Nope, they won't sell
you those. Clutch master cylinder - a steal at $250.

Then the oil pump died. Funny thing about Hondas - they don't have
bearings, rather everything runs on hardened aluminum. Lose the oil
pump, the motor's toast. There's no way to rebuild it because there's
nothing to rebuild.

Oh yeah, the adjustment guide for the carbs points out that you need a
small screwdriver 'and lots of patience'.

He was looking at a new Shadow, and asked the dealer about this on the
newer ones. Nope, they still make 'em that way. He went out and bought
a Harley instead. At least a Harley motor's rebuildable, and they're
all roller bearing anyway. Not to mention, if you think Harley dealers
are dicks, try your average crotch rocket shop some day...

I don't get how the Japanese got to where they are in ther car market,
other than American cars of the 70's must have been truely horrid
things...

 

[Blah blah]

Toyota starters are notorious for popping.


On some hondas, because they assumed the alternatoir would be perfect
forever, you have to pull the driveshaft/CV joint on that side to change
it. The Saturn alternator's a breeze in comparison.


I'm convinced the Japanese do not know how to build automatics. I've
yet to drive a Japanese car with a well behaved one. My friend had his
Toyota tranny lock up solid on him, without warning...



It's a Japanese car. Parts are $$$$$

Reminds me of the time a friend tried to ressurect his old Honda
motorcycle. New voltage regulator? $350. Carb rebuild kit? Don't
ask. Get the shims to do the valve adjustments? Nope, they won't sell
you those. Clutch master cylinder - a steal at $250.

Then the oil pump died. Funny thing about Hondas - they don't have
bearings, rather everything runs on hardened aluminum. Lose the oil
pump, the motor's toast. There's no way to rebuild it because there's
nothing to rebuild.

Oh yeah, the adjustment guide for the carbs points out that you need a
small screwdriver 'and lots of patience'.

He was looking at a new Shadow, and asked the dealer about this on the
newer ones. Nope, they still make 'em that way. He went out and bought
a Harley instead. At least a Harley motor's rebuildable, and they're
all roller bearing anyway. Not to mention, if you think Harley dealers
are dicks, try your average crotch rocket shop some day...

Lol

Man I knew these things for years and a majority of people still
haven't caught on. At least when you rebuild a harley you increase the
value. Heck dont touch it and the value will still go up. It sounds like
the voltage regulator alone cost as much as what that honda bike would
of been worth.
Btw anyone catch "Mail Call" on the history channel just recently? A
question was asked as to what was the worst piece of equipment issued to
our troops. Answer: A French maching gun. I say never rely on another
country for your weapons, car parts, etc etc.

 

[Philip Nasadowski]

Man I knew these things for years and a majority of people still
haven't caught on. At least when you rebuild a harley you increase the
value. Heck dont touch it and the value will still go up. It sounds like
the voltage regulator alone cost as much as what that honda bike would
of been worth.

Yeah, he gave up on Honda after that episode. Me? I'm still loving my
'99 FXDWG with it's hot rodded motor and custom paint and all....

Then again, GM may have invented depriciation, but the Japanese
perfected it :/

 

[Tim Shoppa]

Did you buy a Saturn because you didn't want to get left standing or
walking? Did you think you were going to get a 100k miles out of it before
it started to fall apart? Have you now been disabused of the notion that
Saturn makes a car to compete in dependability with Hondas, Nissans, and
Toyotas? Heheheh.

I have a crappy Valeo D6RA starter in front of me. If you want to see it
cussed, just google it. It's made by eurofaggots in France. It failed at
99k miles and mostly highway travel.

Compare this with the Delco-issue alternator that came on the SL series...
which was likely to fail in the first 60K miles or so.

Yeah, changing a starter is more difficult than changing an alternator, and
I'm sure that a Valeo starter is a lot harder to find in Hicksville USA
than a Delco alternator.

Your complaint about "it was only the solenoid but I had to buy a whole
new starter" is valid for almost any small-car starter from the past decade
or two. If you've got a little bit of time most starter/
alternator rebuild shops can repair the solenoid (even on a bizarro
Euro starter) really quickly and for a price the fraction of a new starter.

Was the $200 you paid for a new starter, a rebuild with core trade-in, ?
From a Saturn dealer or a parts store or a alternator/starter shop?

Tim.

 

[jls]

" jls" <[email protected]> wrote in message

Compare this with the Delco-issue alternator that came on the SL series...
which was likely to fail in the first 60K miles or so.

Yeah, changing a starter is more difficult than changing an alternator, and
I'm sure that a Valeo starter is a lot harder to find in Hicksville USA
than a Delco alternator.

Your complaint about "it was only the solenoid but I had to buy a whole
new starter" is valid for almost any small-car starter from the past decade
or two. If you've got a little bit of time most starter/
alternator rebuild shops can repair the solenoid (even on a bizarro
Euro starter) really quickly and for a price the fraction of a new starter.

Was the $200 you paid for a new starter, a rebuild with core trade-in, ?
From a Saturn dealer or a parts store or a alternator/starter shop?

I never called the Saturn dealer. I don't care for them, mainly because
they are from a rogue state I don't care for.

Tim.

Hello, Tim, I just got through crawling around in the gravel under the
Saturn. The starter I wound up with and just installed was new, made in
China. I found it at a starter repair shop here for $135 and the dealer
let me keep my precious Valeo, which I had misdiagnosed. Plus the pieces
that fell out of it. The Valeo had sheared its shaft just aft of the
needle bearings on the drive end.

The Chinese starter is guaranteed for 2 years. It has "Brand New Starter"
and some numbers and assurances of OEM and whatnot written on the box.

Most of the parts suppliers I had called wanted $200 for a rebuilt starter
and the core. Thank you for your support. The little '96 Saturn cranked
right up.

BTW, I found used but guaranteed Valeo starters for $30 on Ebay but the
Connecticut dealer selling them did not return my e-mail. Apparently you
have to have a good record buying on Ebay and a credit card to buy from
these characters, plus you have to go through paypal. I haven't bought on
Ebay for a year or so, not since a character in Ohio tried to sell me a pile
of junk aircraft cylinders for a thousand dollars.

Now I'm going back to busting my knuckles on recip aircraft engines, which
do crank well on the lightweight automobile starters converted for the
purpose.

 

[Justin]

I have a crappy Valeo D6RA starter in front of me. If you want to

Don't expect too much from these French assholes and you won't be let down.
My father spent 3 years in France in the 60's when he was in the United
States Army (mechanic in the motor pool). He said that the army employed a
lot of local French people to work on the base, and they were about as
useless as tits on a hog. They were lazy, took a ton of cigarette and
coffee breaks, and didn't work too hard when they were working. He also
said they were real rude. Here, we were spending billions to help protect
their country and their democracy (after having already saved their asses
in WW2), and they treated our boys like crap.

What do you expect from a country that thinks snails are a delicacy? What
a bunch of friggin' fairies. They sit back and ridicule the USA foreign
policy until they get invaded; then they sit back and watch us save their
hides.

 

[ProfWdesk1]

I read posts here about problems ... but, ... no one I met have ever had any
major problems with their Saturns in the first 100k

 

[Kirk Kohnen]

Don't hold back, Justin! Tell us what you REALLY think!

 

[Tim Shoppa]

Hello, Tim, I just got through crawling around in the gravel under the
Saturn. The starter I wound up with and just installed was new, made in
China. I found it at a starter repair shop here for $135 and the dealer
let me keep my precious Valeo, which I had misdiagnosed. Plus the pieces
that fell out of it. The Valeo had sheared its shaft just aft of the
needle bearings on the drive end.

The Chinese starter is guaranteed for 2 years. It has "Brand New Starter"
and some numbers and assurances of OEM and whatnot written on the box.

Is it possible that the Valeo was also a made-in-China unit? All the
auto companies have really "gone global" in the past decade, to the point
where something branded by a Euro company is likely made in India or China...

I'm somewhat critical of unknown Indian/Malysian/Chinese suppliers, but
if they have been around for a couple of years they often get a pretty
good reputation.

Most of the parts suppliers I had called wanted $200 for a rebuilt starter
and the core. Thank you for your support. The little '96 Saturn cranked
right up.

Keep in mind that a good alternator or starter rebuild can actually be
superior to the factory item. The best rebuilds go through and replace all the
wear parts (bearings, brushes, regulator, etc.) with superior components.
That said, a lot of rebuild shops use cheap crap parts installed by people with
little experience, and it's hard to see the difference from the outside.

How hard was it to pull and replace the starter? I've worked on the other
side of the engine (alternator, PS pump, idler, tensioner) a good amount,
enough to know what you get at from the top and what you get at from the
bottom and what you do through the wheel well, but never had to muck with
the starter.

Tim.

 

[Blah blah]

Is it possible that the Valeo was also a made-in-China unit? All the
auto companies have really "gone global" in the past decade, to the point
where something branded by a Euro company is likely made in India or China...

I'm somewhat critical of unknown Indian/Malysian/Chinese suppliers, but
if they have been around for a couple of years they often get a pretty
good reputation.

I dont trust india parts. I had fought with a aftermarket ford engine
mount only to have it rip its guts open and start all back over again.
But then again it is still a ford design

Keep in mind that a good alternator or starter rebuild can actually be
superior to the factory item. The best rebuilds go through and replace all the
wear parts (bearings, brushes, regulator, etc.) with superior components.
That said, a lot of rebuild shops use cheap crap parts installed by people with
little experience, and it's hard to see the difference from the outside.

Usually aftermarket alts come with a very good warranty. The problem
most people run into is they dont charge their battery prior to running
their car. That causes the alternator to over work itself and burns it
out. They also dont consider what took out their alt in the first place,
like a bad battery.

 

[Jonnie Santos]

I thought the same and got a good laugh - I work with a guy who rails the
French at any opportunity... My Dad did the Normandy thing - never said
anything about the French that I remember.

 

[jls]

" jls" <[email protected]> wrote in message

Is it possible that the Valeo was also a made-in-China unit?

It has a sticker on it saying, "Made in France." Also I noticed the needle
bearings have "Germany" on the race so nothing like trying to give a little
respectability to a bad starter.



All the

auto companies have really "gone global" in the past decade, to the point
where something branded by a Euro company is likely made in India or China...

I'm somewhat critical of unknown Indian/Malysian/Chinese suppliers, but
if they have been around for a couple of years they often get a pretty
good reputation.


Keep in mind that a good alternator or starter rebuild can actually be
superior to the factory item. The best rebuilds go through and replace all the
wear parts (bearings, brushes, regulator, etc.) with superior components.
That said, a lot of rebuild shops use cheap crap parts installed by people with
little experience, and it's hard to see the difference from the outside.

How hard was it to pull and replace the starter?

It wasn't easy. You will need a crawler because you will be running for
more tools and cussing. I had to use a mirror to get a 12mm socket on the
upper bolt attaching the starter to the crankcase. Plus, you need a 6"
extension. Plus there's room there for one hand only unless you have
little chipmunk paws. It's a several hour, knuckle-busting job, but worth
it I guess, if not just to build character.

The new starter I couldn't get a socket on the nut for the small solenoid
connector. The large connector you can see and it is easy. Luckily I found
a metric carburetor wrench for the small wire. Shorter the wrenches the
better because the space is so tight. And dark, so you'll need a droplight
too. I wound up using one of those LED lights you wear on your head like
a sweatband because if you stick a droplight up into the hole, it fills it
and then you got no room for your one hand.


I've worked on the other

 

[jls]

I read posts here about problems ... but, ... no one I met have ever had any
major problems with their Saturns in the first 100k

Good. Mine's purring away now. I'm going for the next 100k. I have
faith the engine can do it, plus it's a right powerful little thing in such
a small package.

As for the starter, alternator, AC, and other accessories . . .

 

[Bob Shuman]

Ed,

I believe most Toyotas use the Nippon-Denso made starter. These are the
same starters used in Chrysler products (since at least 1990 since I fixed a
van that had one back in 1996) and some Mitsubishi products as well. They
are actually a pretty well made starter and 95+% of the failures are due to
premature wear on the high current copper solenoid contacts. I've found
these contacts usually last about 5-6 years/60K miles before they start to
show symptoms of failure (turn key, hear click, but no starter motor
engagement). The good news is that they usually then take several
weeks/months before they fail catastrophically and you can't start the
vehicle.

Like you, I've been successful in replacing just the contacts. This
requires removal of the starter and then opening the solenoid by removing
three (I think they were 4mm?) solenoid chamber bolts. The contacts are
held in place by a couple of additional bolts, but can easily be replaced in
about 5 minutes total time. After replacing the contacts, I also wire brush
the copper ring on the solenoid plunger and then spray everything down with
electronic parts/contact cleaner before reassembling. As I said, this takes
about 5 minutes more time than just replacing the old unit with a rebuilt or
new one. The best part is that the contacts cost a whole lot less than a
rebuilt starter. Here is a web site I found that has some great pictures
and the guy sells the contacts for $10 plus a dollar S/H to anywhere in the
US. The only problem is knowing which type of contacts you need (there are
4 types in use). My 1999 transverse engine minivan used one type "A" and
one type "B". A LHS longitudinal engine car used one type "A" and one type
"C". (Pictures of the types are on the web site referenced below).

http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/Starter.shtml

I know this does not apply for the Saturn, but thought I'd post it here
since I would assume you could find the contacts somewhere for the Saturn
starter as well. Another suggestion is to look up "Starter Rebuilders" or
"Alternator Rebuilders" in the telephone book or online directory to see if
there is one in your area. Before I found the web source, I drove 40+ miles
one way to a small rebuilder that I found listed and if I carried in the
parts they always seemed to be able to sell me the ones I needed.

Bob