Engine Shuts off

[Clayc]

2004 L series w/ 90k miles..

After 15-20 run time, engine shuts down like the key was shut off. Fuel pressure is 45 PSI at idle and only drops to 35 when engine shuts down. Engine turns over and will not start. Will start after it sits awhile. Has a new fuel filter. I have discovered a serious fuel leak at top of tank. Unk if it’s fuel delivery or return line. Fuel relay replaced as well as main engine relay (precautionary) I do not have a scanner to check for codes.

Any ideas?

 

[Derf]

Is ses light on?
If so, go to AutoZone or similar and have codes read for free.

Potential cause may be fuel pump overheating. If you have an external fuel leak, the return is likely not getting back into the tank, meaning you are going through fuel at a ridiculously high rate.

If you don't have at least a quarter tank of gas, the fuel pump does not remain fully submerged in gasoline, which is used to dissipate heat from the pump. Air has horrible heat transfer properties compared to gasoline. So if you run your pump at extremely low fuel tank levels, you are punishing it and will eventually overheat it. The fuel pressure should not immediately drop to zero when the car stops running. If it did, it would suggest an issue with excessive pressure bleed off at the pump.

Since there is no crazy bleed off and the vehicle does run for a good bit of time, the leak is likely where the return line meets the connector to go back into the tank, and I suspect the fuel pump is overheating due to low tank volume, and drops below the minimum fuel pressure that can keep the vehicle running.

Address the leak immediately. It is a safety hazard.
You have to drop the tank to do so, I assume. This would be the time change out the fuel pump, which I believe would come with brand new connectors on the top to which you can attach your existing fuel lines.

The above is speculation, as I cannot see the vehicle, see the leak, or see how much gas is in the tank.

 

[Clayc]

Is ses light on?
If so, go to AutoZone or similar and have codes read for free.

Potential cause may be fuel pump overheating. If you have an external fuel leak, the return is likely not getting back into the tank, meaning you are going through fuel at a ridiculously high rate.

If you don't have at least a quarter tank of gas, the fuel pump does not remain fully submerged in gasoline, which is used to dissipate heat from the pump. Air has horrible heat transfer properties compared to gasoline. So if you run your pump at extremely low fuel tank levels, you are punishing it and will eventually overheat it. The fuel pressure should not immediately drop to zero when the car stops running. If it did, it would suggest an issue with excessive pressure bleed off at the pump.

Since there is no crazy bleed off and the vehicle does run for a good bit of time, the leak is likely where the return line meets the connector to go back into the tank, and I suspect the fuel pump is overheating due to low tank volume, and drops below the minimum fuel pressure that can keep the vehicle running.

Address the leak immediately. It is a safety hazard.
You have to drop the tank to do so, I assume. This would be the time change out the fuel pump, which I believe would come with brand new connectors on the top to which you can attach your existing fuel lines.

The above is speculation, as I cannot see the vehicle, see the leak, or see how much gas is in the tank.

Thanks for the reply… there’s no way to see that dang leak, even with a mirror.. just dropped the tank, and as expected, something would break. The fuel return line 90 into the pump snapped before I could reach up and unclip it. So, fuel pump for sure.

No engine service lights were on until I pulled the main engine power relay. Im sure that tripped a hard code. As as soon as I get the fuel pump in and that leak located and addressed. I’ll try to get it somewhere and pull the codes.

I’m not ruling out CPS either

 

[Derf]

I'm assuming you mean ckp, crankshaft position sensor. It's a possibility, but I believe it is not as straightforward to sort out as it is on an S car. I'm no L car specialist, but I know someone who is and I believe the L Series has actual camshaft position sensors (CPS) so it is not completely blind if the CKP goes out.

The temperature dependence reproducibility does it seem a bit non-coincidental indeed. We shall see.

 

[Derf]

Here is a link to the removal and installation procedure for the tank. Sorry I'm a bit late on this but I didn't know you were going at it this morning.

https://charm.li/Saturn/2004/L Series L4-2.2L VIN F/Repair and Diagnosis/Powertrain Management/Fuel Delivery and Air Induction/Fuel Tank/Service and Repair/Removal and Replacement/

This is part of a larger manual set for many many makes of cars. They are supposedly copies of factory service manuals. They reside at charm.li. you can see from the link structure I picked Saturn, 2004, 2.2 L, repair and diagnosis, powertrain management, fuel delivery and air induction, fuel tank, service and repair, removal and replacement. To get to the repair instructions for the tank.

I believe there is a similar page in there for the fuel pump.

If yours is the V6, you will need to go out to the 2004 layer under Saturn and choose the V6, followed by everything above.

It takes a while when you first start using this to find pretty much anything, but it is well worth the learning effort to access factory information available not really anywhere else besides FSM printed manuals.

It's fun when different years of the same vehicle do not have the same structure in the manual as to the location of the same items.

With your car only having 90k on it, I would not cheap out on a pump, since I'm sure you never want to do this job again.

 

[Derf]

Here are a Carter and a Delphi complete fuel pump with housing, level sensor, and senders for both the fuel level and the fuel pressure.

There is a difference in the shape of the connector. One is oval, the other is square. I've included the images and data pages as attachments. Depending on where you live and their condition. You may wish to replace the tank support straps as again you will not want to deal with this again and by the time you need to they will not be available.

 

[Derf]

You can pick up the fuel quick disconnectors at AutoZone or similar. I don't know the diameter of fuel line in an L car. Just take one with you.

 

[Clayc]

Here is a link to the removal and installation procedure for the tank. Sorry I'm a bit late on this but I didn't know you were going at it this morning.

https://charm.li/Saturn/2004/L Series L4-2.2L VIN F/Repair and Diagnosis/Powertrain Management/Fuel Delivery and Air Induction/Fuel Tank/Service and Repair/Removal and Replacement/

This is part of a larger manual set for many many makes of cars. They are supposedly copies of factory service manuals. They reside at charm.li. you can see from the link structure I picked Saturn, 2004, 2.2 L, repair and diagnosis, powertrain management, fuel delivery and air induction, fuel tank, service and repair, removal and replacement. To get to the repair instructions for the tank.

I believe there is a similar page in there for the fuel pump.

If yours is the V6, you will need to go out to the 2004 layer under Saturn and choose the V6, followed by everything above.

It takes a while when you first start using this to find pretty much anything, but it is well worth the learning effort to access factory information available not really anywhere else besides FSM printed manuals.

It's fun when different years of the same vehicle do not have the same structure in the manual as to the location of the same items.

With your car only having 90k on it, I would not cheap out on a pump, since I'm sure you never want to do this job again.

Thanks for the info.. tank is on the ground and pump ordered. Someone mentioned above in ref to crank position sensor and cam position sensor. Depends on Make of veh the acronyms. Thanks for everyone’s input..

 

[Derf]

Everyone = Me right now.
This board is very slow.
I also moderate at Saturnforum.com.
We have "gurus" for the s, L, and ions, sort of for 1st gen vues. A couple retired 40-year mechanics for good measure. The Saturns for which we have no experts we collectively sort out. The ecotec 2.2 engines are pretty similar so that covers up to 2007 when they came up with the 2.4. blah blah blah.

Please come back and post your activity and resolution. So many threads never come to conclusion. It will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Clayc]

Everyone = Me right now.
This board is very slow.
I also moderate at Saturnforum.com.
We have "gurus" for the s, L, and ions, sort of for 1st gen vues. A couple retired 40-year mechanics for good measure. The Saturns for which we have no experts we collectively sort out. The ecotec 2.2 engines are pretty similar so that covers up to 2007 when they came up with the 2.4. blah blah blah.

Please come back and post your activity and resolution. So many threads never come to conclusion. It will be greatly appreciated.

I absolutely will! Thank you

 

[Clayc]

Update…. Hopefully the final one…

Changed fuel pump and filter.. fuel leak cured. Car shutting off in 15 min from cold start. After sitting for 15-20, would shut down in 6-8 min.

Got it to Oreilly. Scanner showed loss of engine speed input. Crank Position Sensor.

Replaced it in their parking lot. 30 min run time and no shut down. So, conclusion is it was a faulty Crank Position Sensor!

 

[Derf]

Glad you are back out n running around.