Bad news, possible cracked head

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J B

Took my SW2 in to Sears Auto for an oil change. After doing the job they
told me to take the car into an engine shop ASAP, because when they
pulled the dipstick out a little smoke was coming out and "that usually
means a cracked head gasket". So all the money I spent at the Saturn
dealership trying to get them to tell me what was wrong seems to have
been a waste. They charged me alot of money but never were able to fix
the problem of my car getting very warm. AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!

Looks like my new tires will have to wait until I get this checked out.
I doubt the $350 or so I'm saving for tires will be enough to replace a
cracked head. This really bites....


Jeff
 
A little smoke constitutes a bad head? Come on... Every car gets
moisture in the crankcase at one time or another. I would assume you
mean steam rather than smoke. Either way, maybe they are blowing smoke
:)

I wouldn't count on anything that an 'oil changer' at Sears has to tell
me, especially diagnosing major engine trouble. How did the oil look?
If you have coolant getting into the crankcase, the oil should have
been like chocolate milk.

James
 
Took my SW2 in to Sears Auto for an oil change. After doing the job they
told me to take the car into an engine shop ASAP, because when they
pulled the dipstick out a little smoke was coming out and "that usually
means a cracked head gasket". So all the money I spent at the Saturn
dealership trying to get them to tell me what was wrong seems to have
been a waste. They charged me alot of money but never were able to fix
the problem of my car getting very warm. AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!

Looks like my new tires will have to wait until I get this checked out.
I doubt the $350 or so I'm saving for tires will be enough to replace a
cracked head. This really bites....


Jeff
Click to expand...
-- .. ... - . .-. ..-. .- -.-. - / .. ... / .- -. / .. -.. .. --- -

Your post title is troll fodder. A bad "head gasket" and "bad head" are
two differnt things. You have a SW2 which has a Twincam which does not
have head casting flaws which means you likely have a bad head gasket
not a bad head. Probably do to overheating if this is the case. Before
you jump to conclusions have YOU ever noticed a measurable loss of
engine coolant???
This could simply be "moisture" in your crank case. A cylinder leak
down & compression test as well as a pressure test of the cooling system
would be VERY WISE before going any further. If they say you need a new
head or head gasket they had better prove it. Some grease monkey at
sears is could be all gun ho over over nothing. (Maybe someone related
to misterfullofcrap.)

-- .. ... - . .-. ..-. .- -.-. - / .. ... / .- -. / .. -.. .. --- -
 
James - They did say 'smoke' but since I didn't see it for myself I
don't know if it was steam or smoke. It was a hot sunny day, no rain or
moisture to speak of, so would it have been possible to get enough
"moisture in the crankcase" to cause some steam like that? The oil was
very dirty and needed changing at least a month ago. I wouldn't say it
looked like chocolate milk, just real dirty oil. I've been real good
with oil changes on this car, except for this one time.

I am concerned because I've known for quite awhile something hasn't been
right under the hood. The engine gets hot but doesn't overheat, because
I make a point of not driving it far like I've wanted to do. I basically
go to work, the store and back home. Oh well, this mystery will be
solved someday when I save enough pesos.
Jeff
 
James - They did say 'smoke' but since I didn't see it for myself I
don't know if it was steam or smoke. It was a hot sunny day, no rain or
moisture to speak of, so would it have been possible to get enough
"moisture in the crankcase" to cause some steam like that? The oil was
very dirty and needed changing at least a month ago. I wouldn't say it
looked like chocolate milk, just real dirty oil. I've been real good
with oil changes on this car, except for this one time.

I am concerned because I've known for quite awhile something hasn't been
right under the hood. The engine gets hot but doesn't overheat, because
I make a point of not driving it far like I've wanted to do. I basically
go to work, the store and back home. Oh well, this mystery will be
solved someday when I save enough pesos.
Jeff
Click to expand...

So they were showing you dirty 3000 mile oil? And you dont go one long
trips now? Like no more than 15 min drives? From what I read this tells
me that there has been enough opportunities for moisture to build up in
your crank case. Moisture collects in your engine just like it collects
on grass early in the morning. Again I ask have "you" noticed a
measureable loss of engine coolant?
 
BlaBla wrote: "...have YOU ever noticed a measurable loss of engine
coolant?"

Absolutely none in fact. I guess it was last winter that Sears changed
the antifreeze to the orange colored coolant that's made for cars with
some wear on the engine. I didn't know they were going to change it and
they didn't charge me, but it was something that needed done. Never
ever, before or since have I had to add coolant. However, during this
long hot summer I did have to add a quart of oil two different times
because the engine did burn some of that up. I'm assuming that's not a
huge deal considering the heat we've had ths year. And one of the times
I added a quart was after the one long drive I took this year.

Just so you guys know how this all started: It was actually over 2 years
ago that a truck tire tread flew off a truck that was 2 spots in front
of me on the highway. The tread hit the car in front of me, went under
his car, his back wheels popped the tread back into the air, then hit
and broke the shield under my bumper before going underneath me car. The
Saturn dealership here in Omaha 'eventually' told me a piece of the
shield lodged up against the "intake gasket" which they replaced. I
swear though that before they changed that gasket, that I heard a small
piece of the shield get sucked up into the engine. Maybe that's not even
possible but it sure did seem like it. Anyways, immediately after the
truck tire tread caused the damage my car has ALWAYS been running warm
but has never overheated. And after changing a thermostat, a water pump,
and an intake gasket, I still can't take the car on long trips. It
wouldn't be so bad if I had money to continually throw at the problem
but I'm just an average working stiff trying to pay the rent every
month.
That's the breaks I guess.
 
Oil changers at Sears! and parts changers at Saturn dealer! Did the oil
changer take a sample of the oil so you could have it analyzed by an oil
lab? Did they save the filter so it could be cut apart and inspected? Did
they have the equipment to test the coolant for combustion products?

If the coolant is leaking into the oil then this would only cause
overheating if the coolant level got very low and this would result in more
than just a little coolant in the oil, this is often visible on the dipstick
(and often referred to as 'making oil' due to the rising level) and it would
be readily visible in the drained oil, .however I suspect that the oil
flunky just drained the oil into a big sump where it was not possible to let
it settle out to check for coolant. This is just another good reason to
change your own oil and to drain it into a CLEAN pan so it can be checked
after settling..

When a blown head gasket causes overheating it is more common for the
combustion products to blow INTO the coolant and this can cause overheating
but will usually also show as foamy or oily and dark contaminated coolant.
In this case the coolant will only leak into the cylinder after shutdown
(due to the cooling system pressure) and usually only in small quantities
that will normally get blown out the tailpipe on the next startup.

AFAIK the twin cam head does not suffer the casting problem that the 96-97
single cam heads did. IMHO a gasket problem is more likely, but suspect
that any overheating is more likely cased by some other problem. I suggest
you find a real mechanic and rule out the more common problems first. They
are lack of coolant circulation due to plugged or corroded radiator or
thermostat that is not opening fully. Any obstruction of the airflow or a
dirty rad or ac rad or missing lower air dam or faulty fan can cause
overheating as can faulty ignition timing. The most obvious thing to check
is the gauge which may be reading high.

As in all mechanics eliminate the most common and easy to fix problems
before jumping to expensive conclusions.

Good luck, YMMV
 
Posted my reply before finishing it. Just wanted to add that Saturn did
check the cooling system on two different occasions. According to them
it was working properly. I will write down what you suggested I do to it
next. Thanks for the advice, Jeff
 
I'm learning alot here guys. Appreciate the info. I'll write some of
this stuff down tomorrow after work.

Thanks, Jeff
 
SW2Driver, my SL1 was getting warmer than usual and then it started leaving
oil in the garage. Yup it was at least a head gasket, and could be more if
they find a crack in the head or it needs to me machined. The cost that
Saturn quoted just for the head gasket change (apparently the intake and
exhaust manifold gaskets must be changed as well) was $943. Since the car
was old I just sold it to a local machanic, didn't want to deal with that
kind of expense on an old car.
 
J B said:
BlaBla wrote: "...have YOU ever noticed a measurable loss of engine
coolant?"

Absolutely none in fact. I guess it was last winter that Sears changed
the antifreeze to the orange colored coolant that's made for cars with
some wear on the engine. I didn't know they were going to change it and
they didn't charge me, but it was something that needed done. Never
ever, before or since have I had to add coolant.
Click to expand...

This pretty much rules out head or gasket failure, and is a very good (but
not 100%) indicator.
However, during this
long hot summer I did have to add a quart of oil two different times
because the engine did burn some of that up. I'm assuming that's not a
huge deal considering the heat we've had ths year. And one of the times
I added a quart was after the one long drive I took this year.
Click to expand...

Keep a log of oil and fuel (and everything else) to determine consumption
rates. EXCESSIVE consumption or a sudden increase in consumption RATE may
be a problem indicator. Most properly wearing engines consume SOME oil.
Some will say that an engine that burns NO oil is not getting emough oil to
the top rings and will have problems in the future but YMMV. Oil
consumption will tend to increase in hot weather and on long trips at high
speed. Our engines burn less oil (and gas) when my wife drives! Old used
oil will burn faster than new fresh oil and can be an indicator that it is
time to change all of it. Some brands will burn slower than others and an
older engine MAY benifit from a change to 10w30 from 5w30 in hot weather.
Just so you guys know how this all started: It was actually over 2 years
ago that a truck tire tread flew off a truck that was 2 spots in front
of me on the highway. The tread hit the car in front of me, went under
his car, his back wheels popped the tread back into the air, then hit
and broke the shield under my bumper before going underneath me car. The
Saturn dealership here in Omaha 'eventually' told me a piece of the
shield lodged up against the "intake gasket" which they replaced. I
swear though that before they changed that gasket, that I heard a small
piece of the shield get sucked up into the engine. Maybe that's not even
possible but it sure did seem like it.
Click to expand...

The air filter (and the air intake box) will prevent stuff getting sucked
into the engine.
Anyways, immediately after the
truck tire tread caused the damage my car has ALWAYS been running warm
but has never overheated. And after changing a thermostat, a water pump,
and an intake gasket, I still can't take the car on long trips.
Click to expand...

Any sudden change in operation linked to an EVENT is a good indicator of the
cause of a problem and is the place to start for a solution! Many here
report that the horizontal air dam below the rad DOES make a difference in
cooling and coolant temp in hot weather, replacing it is a good first
action, (find a used one from a wrecking yard to save $. Find a self
service yard as you will find lots of other stuff like tires on wheels and
other plastic pieces that you can purchase cheaply, and the exercise of
removing them yourself will teach you a lot, and if you break them you do
not need to take them).

As others have said here, short trips constitute SEVERE usage (especially in
cool weather) and will result in a buildup of moisture in the crankcase and
REQUIRE shortened oil change intervals. Engines like long highway trips (at
reasonable speeds) and this is usually the least severe form of operation.

YMMV
 
BläBlä said:
-- .. ... - . .-. ..-. .- -.-. - / .. ... / .- -. / .. -.. .. --- -

Your post title is troll fodder. A bad "head gasket" and "bad head" are
two differnt things. You have a SW2 which has a Twincam which does not
have head casting flaws which means you likely have a bad head gasket
not a bad head. Probably do to overheating if this is the case. Before
you jump to conclusions have YOU ever noticed a measurable loss of
engine coolant???
This could simply be "moisture" in your crank case. A cylinder leak
down & compression test as well as a pressure test of the cooling system
would be VERY WISE before going any further. If they say you need a new
head or head gasket they had better prove it. Some grease monkey at
sears is could be all gun ho over over nothing. (Maybe someone related
to misterfullofcrap.)
Click to expand...

Every time someone tells about a REAL cracked head in their
Saturn-due to a manufacturing flaw- Bla Bla accuses them of being a
troll related to me! Everyone knows that cylinderhead casting flaws
have been STANDARD at SATURN!
 
Sorry to hear about your SL1 'micven55'. I found the Saturn dealership
here to be very expensive, especially considering the problem still
exists. I know shops at dealerships are more expensive, but I feel I
really got hosed.

Good info the rest of you gave. I'll definitely write some things down
so I don't forget any of it. I'm considering just getting my tires first
then saving for whatever other repairs are needed. Who knows, I may even
move before doing anything else to it. Although I will be getting a new
belt put on. I'd hate to get stuck halfway between Omaha and Casper or
Billings with a broken belt. The friend who sold me the car kept all his
service repair bills, and I don't see where a new belt was put on.
That's almost 7 years. And the car has 71,000 miles on it. It's possible
he did change it and lost a bill, but I hate taking chances and the belt
is worn. Heck, I've put about 26,000 of those miles on it and I
obviously haven't changed it.

Man, am I ready to get on the road and head west. One of these blue
moons....just maybe.

Jeff
 
Ok, I've been browsing the on-line parts stores (i.e. Napa Auto), just
to price a horizontal air dam. Couldn't find it anywhere. Is it part of
something else maybe? Or known by another name?

Thanks, Jeff
 
BlaBla wrote: "...have YOU ever noticed a measurable loss of engine
coolant?"

Absolutely none in fact. I guess it was last winter that Sears changed
the antifreeze to the orange colored coolant that's made for cars with
some wear on the engine. I didn't know they were going to change it and
they didn't charge me, but it was something that needed done. Never
ever, before or since have I had to add coolant. However, during this
Click to expand...

Good, then you have no known issue with your head or head gasket.
long hot summer I did have to add a quart of oil two different times
because the engine did burn some of that up. I'm assuming that's not a
huge deal considering the heat we've had ths year. And one of the times
I added a quart was after the one long drive I took this year.
Click to expand...

Most likely your oil control rings are sticking or PCV valve needs
cleaned out with brake clean.
Just so you guys know how this all started: It was actually over 2 years
ago that a truck tire tread flew off a truck that was 2 spots in front
of me on the highway. The tread hit the car in front of me, went under
his car, his back wheels popped the tread back into the air, then hit
and broke the shield under my bumper before going underneath me car. The
Saturn dealership here in Omaha 'eventually' told me a piece of the
shield lodged up against the "intake gasket" which they replaced. I
swear though that before they changed that gasket, that I heard a small
piece of the shield get sucked up into the engine. Maybe that's not even
Click to expand...

I remember that post! It made no since to me at all then or now. Kinda
need imagery for this because I have no idea how the air sheild below
your radiator made it to the top of your engine compartment, past your
air filter, through the throttle body, into the intake manifold, and
then lodged itself into your intake gasket which is on the back side of
your engine... ? Thats just one scenario I came up with from what I
could gather from your post. The other scenario's make about as much
sense... I still have no idea how your intake gasket was "damaged"
unless you're speaking of a different part.

Curious, was your oil pan dented in any way?

possible but it sure did seem like it. Anyways, immediately after the
truck tire tread caused the damage my car has ALWAYS been running warm
but has never overheated. And after changing a thermostat, a water pump,
and an intake gasket, I still can't take the car on long trips. It
wouldn't be so bad if I had money to continually throw at the problem
but I'm just an average working stiff trying to pay the rent every
month.
That's the breaks I guess.
Click to expand...












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.... ..- .-. . / . -. --- ..- --. .... / .... . / ..-. . . -.. / --- -. /
... - .-.-.-
 
Ok, I've been browsing the on-line parts stores (i.e. Napa Auto), just
to price a horizontal air dam. Couldn't find it anywhere. Is it part of
something else maybe? Or known by another name?

Thanks, Jeff
Click to expand...

"Air dams" keep air from going under the car from the start. I'm not to
sure what the parts actual name would be other than "air deflector". You
wont likely find it at napa, autozone, or advance since its a body
component.
 
BlaBla wrote: "I still have no idea how your intake gasket was "damaged"
unless you're speaking of another part."

Either I wrote it wrong or my posts are running together since I've
written a few lately. What I meant to say if I didn't, was that when I
originally took the car in to Saturn after the incident, I was told a
piece of the shield broke off and lodged up against the "air intake"
damaging it. I'd have to find the old receipt but I'm pretty sure I was
told they needed to replace the "air intake" if that makes any sense.

It was a couple of visits later they finally hooked the car up to a
tester and found out that the water pump was bad as well as the intake
gasket. I had both replaced for a heck of alot of money. There was a
visit not long before that one when I had them replace the thermostat
MUCH to the dismay of the mechanic. He told me, "If it was my car I
wouldn't even worry about it." Guess he thought I was imagining the
problem. He hadn't even hooked the car up to the tester, but did check
the cooling system which was working ok according to him. I know I
wasted over $100 on getting that thermostat replaced, but did so out of
frustration.

"Curious, was your oil pan dented in anyway?"

Not that I know of. I've had a few oil changes since the incident and
was never told it was dented or damaged. I do want to take it to a
garage and ask if they'll put it on a lift and look at the underside
with me. I'm REALLY curious as to what I'll see. Especially that
"horizontal air dam". It makes perfect sense that it could of and
probably was damaged. I'm guessing it's not part of the shield. When I
first took the car in the shield was replaced.

Thanks, Jeff
 
No apologies needed, my car was old and it was time to move on. I got a
Mazda 3s and it's an absolute hoot to drive. As far as my old SL1 goes
the mechanic had to mill the head, I guess it was warped a little, and
replace the head gasket, no cracks. He was advertising it for $2500 more
than I sold it to him, so I'm sure he made out well on it.
 
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