Alignment issues

I've just (week and a half) had new tires put on my car, 1997 SW2. The
tires are Michelin Hydroedge. I'd already decided that I wanted quiter
tires than the OEMs and these came along claiming to be their best general
purpose tire. They appear to be everything they claim. Now comes the hitch
in the process. Both Saturn and the tire installer recommended replacing
the right tie-rod as it was warn. Well I figure Ok I've just spent a small
fortune on tires better get it done. Took the car into Saturn so that I'd
have Saturn + Saturn parts in the front-end.

Unfortunately now that I have the car back, it handles like the suspension
has a layer of Jello in it, or I'm driving on two inch wide balloon tires.
If the car rides over a diagonal expansion joint in the road it will pull
and squirm then come back, same thing with a man hole cover. If I drive
along a broken-up section over road the car feels like it is going out of
control. The other thing I've noticed is that past a certain point in a
tight left or right turn the steering doesn't return. Which I don't recall
happening before. Took the car to another dealer and asked them to drive
it. They didn't feel that anything was mechanically wrong, but maybe the
car was toe-in or toe-out beyond spec. and the alignment should be checked
again.

Just for my curiousity, I measured the front-end tread centre to centre
(easy on these as there is a groove right down the middle). The front of
the tires just clearing the frame is 56 7/16, back of the tire just clearing
the frame is 57 3/16, 1/2 inch difference.

Back at the original dealer, they rechecked the front-end and considered the
front end to be in spec., unfortunately they didn't print out the numbers.

I'm not satisified with the feel. I've under inflated the tires by two lbs,
which helps, but doesn't feel as good as before the work. If I test-drove
any car that felt like this I'd walk away. So I can't believe this is
normal.

Any suggestions??

David

 

That works out to be about 5 degrees total toe. Spec for my 2000 SL2 is
0.00 to +0.40 degrees. Looks like someones' equipment needs to be checked &
fixed and/or people retrained. Look for another shop before the new tires
ware out.

 

Sorry, it works out to be 1.25 degrees. I slipped on the key board.

 

Thanks for the responses. I don't have the specs with me to compare, but
the dealer wrote them down for me, then forget to give me the readings on
the car. Would a zero to positive value be toe-out?

Thanks

David

 

Toe Out is listed as (-) and Toe In as (+).

 

I took the vehicle to a Pontiac dealer near me. Covered all the issues with
the rep. including wanting a copy of the numbers. So the tech does the test
drive, mechanical inspection, and what ever else happens behind closed
doors. They declare everything is fine and that it drives the way all
Saturns typically drive. So what about the numbers? Big huddle, rep talks
on the phone to the floor, says, tech says its in spec and didn't print the
numbers. I roll my eyes, express my disbelief, pay my bill and leave.

I've basically done the toe-in setup myself. I measured on each front tire,
front and back surfaces, six inches from the ground up to the tread. At
each location I marked the tire with a grease pencil. I then taped (packing
tape) a measuring tape to the leading tread and another tape measure to the
trailing tape. This allowed me to consistantly measure the tire spacing.
I've set the front to a little over 57 1/4 and the rear to a little over 57
3/8. The "little over" is about 1/32 to 1/16 because flexing of the tread
and tape securing the tape measures. The hardest part of the process was
getting the steering wheel level when the car was traveling in a straight
line.

The car drives a whole lot better now. A personal vindication is that tires
are cold after a 25+ km drive, were as before, after a shorter trip the
tires were warm to the hand. Not very scientific. I would also guess that
the different tires made acceptable limits a lot tighter, maybe the sidewall
is more flexible on the Michelins.

Of course, I just had to measure the backend, and it is about 3/8 toe-in.
Probably explains why I feel that the back of the car sways back and forth
after some bumbs in the road.

David

 

I also do my own alignments (including camber & castor).

My "trick" to measuring the toe is to stick a couple of pins into the
tire tread and measure between them. I then roll the car forward or
backwards (rolling the pins over the top) to measure the other side of
the tire.

The advantage to this method is not only does it give you something
you can accurately measure to, it compensates for the tread moving
in/out slightly around the circumference and compensates for any
warped rims, etc.

Measuring by using the tread I've found doesn't produce very
consistent results (measure again, especially after driving the car
and it will be different). Using the pins works to within 1/32" after
a little practice.

Steve

 

Interesting idea, it sounds like the method takes two people.

I'm happy with the front end, though it seems loose to me. Now i'm thinking
about doing the back end. At highway speeds the back end squirms back and
forth after a bump or rut in the road.

David